COVID-19 — Coronavirus

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Nicola Stuegeon just noted that we are NOT back where we were in April because we drove it down during the Summer months. So we start from a lower base. But with Winter coming if we do not suppress now too we do not know where we will be soon.

She added that hosptal admissions and icu patients with covid are 'rapidly rising' and reminded that 3 weeks ago she announced 40 people were in hospital with Covid and now more than that have been added in a single day and the numbers have been rising every day for a week or more.

This is why she says we have to take sterner action now.
 
Don't really know what NS intends @Healdplace, can only think of pubs, unessential shops and gyms etc to close again. Hope it's not the case, I don't know of any outbreak associated with gyms or such like though so will wait and see.
 
Scotland week to week

2 wks ago 0 deaths v last week 0 deaths v today 2 deaths

Cases 383 v 806 v 800

% positive 7.6 v 11.5 v 13.2

patients 73 v 123 v 262

ventilators 10 v 14 v 25

Hard to see how these numbers would not be regarded as at least concerning.
 
Don't really know what NS intends @Healdplace, can only think of pubs, unessential shops and gyms etc to close again. Hope it's not the case, I don't know of any outbreak associated with gyms or such like though so will wait and see.


THe scientist with her in the briefing just said he has told the government the key risk area that needs controlling is 'where households mix' - and mentioned the hospitality industry particularly.

So that might be a clue to tomorrow's decision.
 
It is true that some of us talk some shite including myself lol, but there were some expert and amateur Bluemooners who seemed to know a bit more than the National authorities at times during the first wave. Examples include, Cityfan evidencing that ventilated ICU patients were deteriorating faster than other ICU patients IIRC. There was also a couple of posters who had identified that cases / infections were doubling every 2 days when SAGE said it was every 3 days. There were even recent observations that the number of positive tests in parts of the country didn’t seem to be reflected in the daily case figures. It’s a bit worrying!
I really wasn't aiming that post at anyone on here. I'm currently producing a load of ROC analysis graphs for my own work, which use true/false positives etc, and it's made me laugh seeing twitter suddenly full of experts on this matter.
 
I really wasn't aiming that post at anyone on here. I'm currently producing a load of ROC analysis graphs for my own work, which use true/false positives etc, and it's made me laugh seeing twitter suddenly full of experts on this matter.
I know mate. It’s a bit like a few years ago when loads of us (and more on social media) tried to become experts on amortisation when we were making lots of signings.
 
Of course not. And by happy clappers I mean those who just say this is no worse than flu and life should just go back to normal as fast as possible.

Perhaps it was an ill chosen phrase. So glad to withdraw it if it helps.

I am not talking about reasonable disagreement over the data or what we should do. That is why this thread is here and welcome.

Everybody wants that normality back as fast as possible. But to get there from here with winter coming involves not saying 1000 a day died in April and only 50 yesterday. or whatever. Or 12,000 cases today was many times more in April.
Healdplace I would have thought you would have known that back in March and April Whitty, Vallance and PHE now think that there were well in excess of 100000 cases a day. You have fogotten we were only testing those admitted to hospital back then. So 12000 cases was not many more times what we had.
 
Healdplace I would have thought you would have known that back in March and April Whitty, Vallance and PHE now think that there were well in excess of 100000 cases a day. You have fogotten we were only testing those admitted to hospital back then. So 12000 cases was not many more times what we had.
I have not forgotten any of that at all. Thats why I always stress the % positive testing numbers. And why them rising is the real guide here. I also give the number of tests carried out in pillar 1 and 2 for England for that reason to be able to compare now and then when we were doing less than a tenth of the tests as now. As England have a peculiar phobia of mentioning % testing numbers. Something I have posted about many tines in the past few months.
 
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The Scottish scientist just implied that the problem is that

I have not forgotten any of that at all. Thats why I always stress the % positive testing numbers. And why them rising is the real guide here.I

I understand that, cases are rising and fast but what you said was incorrect wasnt it. 12000 positive tests is not many times what we had in April.
 
I understand that, cases are rising and fast but what you said was incorrect wasnt it. 12000 positive tests is not many times what we had in April.

It was not incorrect. It was literally true that we are identifying more cases than we did in March/April.

Yes, that is because we were doing fewer tests and only really testing sick people then - so it skewed data and we know now there were likely far more people who had it with relatively mild symptoms and numbers are rising now at least partly because we are testing many more who are moderately symptomatic or asymptomatic.

But these numbers are what people see and are rising day to day and you know surely as I do that the media are not going to do anything but talk about them going up in literal terms as they do with the average death numbers.

Perception of the public and consequent action of the government tends to be driven by public perception at least as much as literal truth and scientific data that mitigates the numbers people see.

Unfortunately far more people vote governments in or out who are entirely ignorant of the nuances or science than those who are. So media expression of raw numbers drive decisions much more than you might hope.
 
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BBC news just now stated baldly that cases are now much higher in Manchester than they ever were. And so the measures clearly have failed.

Maybe, maybe not. Depends how many tests they did in Manchester 6 weeks ago versus now. Which I don't know and I suspect neither do the BBC.

THe point is that - as I said above - they push the raw numbers as fact and that is what everyone watching the news right now will take from that feature.

Not the deeper issues and mitigation that the science does indeed bring to the situation.

And governments I supect care far more long term how the results of their actions are painted by the BBC than by science.
 
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Scotland week to week

2 wks ago 0 deaths v last week 0 deaths v today 2 deaths

Cases 383 v 806 v 800

% positive 7.6 v 11.5 v 13.2

patients 73 v 123 v 262

ventilators 10 v 14 v 25

Hard to see how these numbers would not be regarded as at least concerning.
Concerning is the word she used and I’m glad that she ruled out a full lockdown which is not warranted at this stage.
 
It was not incorrect. It was literally true that we are identifying more cases than we did in March/April.

Yes, that is because we were doing fewer tests and only really testing sick people then - so it skewed data and we know now there were likely far more people who had it with relatively mild symptoms and numbers are rising now at least partly because we are testing many more who are moderately symptomatic or asymptomatic.

But these numbers are what people see and are rising day to day and you know surely as I do that the media are not going to do anything but talk about them going up in literal terms as they do with the average death numbers.

Perception of the public and consequent action of the government tends to be driven by public perception at least as much as literal truth and scientific data that mitigates the numbers people see.

Unfortunately far more people vote governments in or out who are entirely ignorant of the nuances or science than those who are. So media expression of raw numbers drive decisions much more than you might hope.
Semantics, come on healdplace you are clearly a clever guy, lets not pretend, we both know why you posted that sentance the way you did!
 
The level of fear about the pandemic needs to be proportionate to its dangers. Some people have become too scared to even leave their houses, whilst hundreds have died in hospitals or care homes without being able to say goodbye to their friends and family, due to blanket bans on visitors for fear of infection. The risk to children and young people is extremely low and even in older age groups many people infected survive and return to normal or near normal health. Long periods of convalescence and healing are common with many, many infections and not only limited to covid-19. Viral hepatitis, glandular fever and even flu.. With all the improvements in clinical management and better understanding of the need for physical distancing we are undoubtedly in a better situation than when all this started.

Continuous government u-turns and contradictory advice also undermine confidence. “Eat Out to Help Out” and ”go back to work” were both adopted slogans. Now as cases are rising—as was inevitable—the government has decided blaming people for not sticking to the rules is the way to go.
If the public do not trust the governments’ approach, or understand the rules, then they will be much less likely to adhere to them.

Public health interventions and strategies should never include striking fear into the minds of the people or punishing them. This would not be advocated in any public health strategy. The government should be talking about the obvious long-term nature of this and the difficulties ahead. Instead, we get told there will be a vaccine by the autumn, everything will be sorted by Christmas, and we will get to no new cases or new deaths, which is misleading at best.

Any infection that is transmitted asymptomatically, and there are many, eradication is not possible without a vaccine. Without one, this strategy of lockdowns will be required to last years, undoubtedly doing more damage than the virus. I suspect we’ve already passed the tipping point when the costs of our efforts to contain the pandemic exceed the benefits, for the majority of population groups.

The risks need to be set into context, compared to the risks of everyday life. There are about 12,000 deaths in the UK every week, many of them from causes a lot easier to prevent than covid-19. We need to strike a better balance and we must counter fear by providing objective, quantitative data that sets this pandemic into context.
None of those illnesses give you asthma, scar lungs, destroy other organs , one girl woke up to find she had a double lung transplant to save her life , people end up on dialysis for kidney damage , heart damage , it is not just post viral fatigue although having had that for a long time that is no picnic unless you call being too exhausted to get dressed etc ok

I feel like i am talking to myself , in an effort to down play covid people are coming out with all kinds of crap

Fucking depressing
 
None of those illnesses give you asthma, scar lungs, destroy other organs , one girl woke up to find she had a double lung transplant to save her life , people end up on dialysis for kidney damage , heart damage , it is not just post viral fatigue although having had that for a long time that is no picnic unless you call being too exhausted to get dressed etc ok

I feel like i am talking to myself , in an effort to down play covid people are coming out with all kinds of crap

Fucking depressing

Sorry Kaz but my perfectly healthy Mum who never smoked, drank and went to the gym 2 or 3 times a week doing classes got flu, which led to pneumonia and her lungs are now fucked. You're wrong there totally.
 
Since we are approaching nearly 6000 pages, i'm reluctant to read through them.
Are we any closer to answering the question of natural immunity once infected?
Are people getting Covid twice?
I know there where some early reports of a few people getting it twice, but dodgy testing and poor immune systems could explain that.

There seems to be a reluctance for anybody to state how long, or if there is any continuing immunity.
Even the announced mass antibody testing never happened. I think it was due to not wanting to give people a false sense of security, and a chance people with immunity given special privileges at work etc.

So what's the latest opinions?
It is not scientist not wanting to commit to the immunity question , there is not enough evidece for any dr to be able to tell a patient they are immune , only time will tell, both hancock and whitty said the other day that people have got ill twice, strange thing to chuck out there if not true , they get to see studies that we dont of course
 
I mean looking at the numbers instead of throwing about tnousands are commiting suicide when there is nothing to back it up

The help is there , people need to reach out

I mean looking at the numbers instead of throwing about tnousands are commiting suicide when there is nothing to back it up

The help is there , people need to reach out
We will have to agree to dissagree again Karen. There is a proven link between recessions, peoples mental wellbeing and sadly suicides. There are also indicators that this recession will be worse due to the social isolation caused by lockdowns. Help is also harder to access due to covid.
 
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