Another new Brexit thread

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Ancient Citizen said:
You have just seen the proof of what is actually happening, British boats have permission, probably because of agreements made when EU rules were accepted. Now you’re talking about conservation, when someone can be arsed to examine the reasons, it will no doubt move onto yet another reason to wish the French well in their endeavours.
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That sounds to me like you know nothing about it, or about (EC) 1415/2004 or 1954/2003

For an idiot's guide try

Scallop Conflict | British Sea Fishing

The Scallop Conflict is a dispute between English and French fishermen over the right to dredge scallops in the English Channel. Most of the hostility caused by the conflict took place in October 2012, but the reasons behind the remain unresolved and at the time of writing
britishseafishing.co.uk
 
Rascal said:
Brexit was seen as a right wing issue because the LEXIT voice was starved of oxygen, its one area I am critical of Corbyn, I believe he should have backed his own instincts and supported BREXIT but he was hamstrung by a PLP of Blairites who were pro-EU and were quite happy to stab him in the back at any opportunity. They are as much the villains of the piece as anybody on the right. Because to be honest its ruined the Labour party, not that it takes much to start a fight in the Labour party, such is the ideological splits in the broad church of the left. Labour could have an argument and split over which brand of digestives were served at the mid conference tea break based purely on ideological fervour.

You are correct though, those on the right of the BREXIT debate will never admit it but leaving will open the door to Socialism, which of course the Right fear with the same sort of ideological fervour Labour hold in the digestive debate.

I did post a long time ago, I think it was on here, but it might be on another forum I frequent that I believed Osborne (not Cameron as he is thick) saw BREXIT as an opportunity to split the left in the same way the EU has split the right for the last 30 years. Its my belief and there is a lot of truth in it that the Tory party are always more loyal to the party than the left are to the Labour party and eventually Tories will toe the line and that is why they are the most successful party in possible the whole world. Its not because they actually have set ideals, its because they believe in the right to govern. Alan Clark in his book on the History of the Conservative party says as much, the Tories exist for power and will change position to be in power, Labour believe in ideological purity and as a result will take that over power. I am guilty of it, I should back Starmer, but I just cant because I don't see him as a Socialist.

Maybe and I think Kate Green MP was right, but wrong to say it, Covid could be an opportunity for Labour and that allied with Brexit could land us with a Socialist government in the near future. The Tories have handled both Covid and Brexit badly and I believe those red wall voters who lent that bumbling fucking clown Johnson there votes will return to Labour once BREXIT is done and dusted, simply because of the handling of Covid.

Then all we need is to sack Keith, get a Socialist in charge and play the Internationale as we march into Downing Street with a radical Socialist manifesto backed by a huge majority and the country will be a great place once again.
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Corbyn was "hamstrung" by 75% of his Momentum members being Remainsrs.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
I was going to post a similar report yesterday, but we’re dealing with foot stamping hysteria that hopes against all sense and reason that British interests are damaged.
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I hadn't realised you were hysterical. British interests were damaged by the vote, and all attempts to mitigate the damage - e.g. by ensuring we stay ( as promised) in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border - have come up against people like you.

There was a reason they made that promise - it was to protect our interests. Well, either that or they are a bigger bunch of lying shysters than I think they are.
 
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Vic said:
Conserving scallop fisheries is irrelevant to why the French took exception to the British boats? Next you'll be telling me that the UK conserving rare marine animals off the UK coast is not relevant.
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Sorry - I have tried to explain to you that I will not interact with you (other than to occasionally correct your posts) - because of your seeming standard practice of twisting the words that others post to divert onto what you want to discuss rather than what they posted.

I just find your style deceitful - so I have no wish to have exchanges with you.

My post was simply about the statement from Defra about the legality of the British scallopers - so - yes - your reply was utterly irrelevant and I do not intend to get sucked into another of your distractions.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
You have just seen the proof of what is actually happening, British boats have permission, probably because of agreements made when EU rules were accepted. Now you’re talking about conservation, when someone can be arsed to examine the reasons, it will no doubt move onto yet another reason to wish the French well in their endeavours.
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Just the usual twisting and distraction of things under discussion
 
mcfc1632 said:
Sorry - I have tried to explain to you that I will not interact with you (other than to occasionally correct your posts) - because of your seeming standard practice of twisting the words that others post to divert onto what you want to discuss rather than what they posted.

I just find your style deceitful - so I have no wish to have exchanges with you.

My post was simply about the statement from Defra about the legality of the British scallopers - so - yes - your reply was utterly irrelevant and I do not intend to get sucked into another of your distractions.
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If I was good at twisting words I'd thank you for a tacit admission that as you only respond to posts where I'm wrong then I must usually be right.

I do admit my comment about fishing in French waters and breaking a moratorium was not just about the clashes in 2018 but previous incidents and agreements. Of course it's relevant that they had not been renewed, but were renewed after the clashes.

As for Defra statements, I'm afraid "a government spokesman said" is these days rarely the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Here's Defra's rationale for the sort of controls the French imposed in the Bay of Seine (though this is about similar restrictions in British waters):

"Government involvement in fisheries management is often required due to the open access nature of fisheries. Without some form of management, open access can result in overfishing on both a local and national level. Fishermen acting on an individual basis can often fail to take account of the effect of their activity on the ability of others to catch fish. The resultant ‘race to fish’ therefore can have a detrimental effect on stocks, other vessels and the long term viability of certain sectors of the fishing industry."

And here's Defra, even though it wasn't illegal (assuming the British boats were outside the 12-mile limit), coming up with a new agreement. Like I said, one might ask why they hadn't renewed the agreement in the first place:

deframedia.blog.gov.uk

UK / French meeting on scallop fishing – Defra in the media

Today, 5 September, a constructive meeting was held in London between industry representatives from Britain and France on scallop fishing in the English Channel. Please see a joint statement below from both the UK and French governments, supported by Fisheries Minister George
deframedia.blog.gov.uk deframedia.blog.gov.uk
 
Vic said:
I hadn't realised you were hysterical. British interests were damaged by the vote, and all attempts to mitigate the damage - e.g. by ensuring we stay ( as promised) in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border - have come up against people like you.

There was a reason they made that promise - it was to protect our interests. Well, either that or they are a bigger bunch of lying shysters than I think they are.
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Please yourself whatever you want to believe mate, it makes no difference to what’s happened, and is happening, none at all.
 
Fred_Quimby said:
Make no mistake Brexit has always been a right wing affair. All you ever heard from the right wing dominated press for 40 years was how bad the EU/Common Market was. 40 years of anti EU, right wing propaganda has to have a major effect on public perception.
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It was allowed to become a right wing affair, to say its always been a RW affair dismisses the likes of Benn and Foot and Labour stood on a manifesto pledge to leave the EU in 1981. Labour became pro-EU under Blair and the Tories became more anti-EU because of Thatcher's mistrust of a united Germany after the Berlin wall fall. That pretty much started the Tory Eurosceptic cause because before that they were instrumental in the setting up of the EU free market rules. The anti EU propaganda is a symptom of us having a predominately RW media who are happy to cheerlead for the Tory party that is why its viewed as a Right Wing cause as well as having that odious **** Farage on board.

It still doesn't alter the fact that many on the left of the Labour party were as anti EU as many on the right of the Tory party. In a way being pro EU is a centrist position, being anti EU is where the where the further left and right wings of Labour and Tories meet, albeit for different reasons.
 
Fred_Quimby said:
Make no mistake Brexit has always been a right wing affair. All you ever heard from the right wing dominated press for 40 years was how bad the EU/Common Market was. 40 years of anti EU, right wing propaganda has to have a major effect on public perception.
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Well - as @Rascal as just proven

The reality is that Brexit has also always attracted supporters of the hard-left and centrists like me.

So Brexit is actually supported by a very broad spectrum of people - although a lot of Remainers (understandably) prefer to brand it as a RWNJ thing - it is convenient (and effective) for the purpose of demonising
 
Marlo said:
Everything your saying is correct but again it's the track record your ignoring. The Tories have dominated UK politics for much of its history, the only time this did not happen in the last 4 decades was under Blair.

Raise tuition fees? Fuck that blame the Lib Dems.
Cut policing and health services to the bone for 10 years? Austerity had to be done because of Labour.
Plunge the country into chaos for the sake of party politics with brexit? No bother, let's the blame the EU. (Regardless of your stance on brexit, you can agree the organisation has been piss poor).
The COVID fiasco? Russian interference in our politics? Lie to the queen? Break international law? Fuck me I could go on, but the point is the Tory party has an incredible ability to duck blame or accountability, it is amazing to watch, fucking teflon has nothing on them.

Honestly if you life depended on it now, who do you think wins the next election? If UK politics was football, it's like watching Bayern romp home every year no matter how good or bad they have been they still win. Helped in no part by the opposition imploding.

I hugely dislike Johnson, the man is a moral vacuum, incompetent, crook. But still he has brought home a resounding majority despite the fact that you would struggle to find a politician with less integrity or character. This was all on display and again he dominated the election. Case in point, this weekend the MOS has done an interview with the latest (is it the latest, who knows) mistress. It is abundantly clear that as mayor of London he was giving tax payers money and providing undue access and assistance to his bit on the side? Has anyone mentioned this....Not a fucking peep. Clinton was nearly strung up for getting a blowjob off an intern

The fact of the matter is the Conservative party has a stranglehold on UK politics and unless there is electoral reform such as changing FPTP then they will continue to be the dominant electoral force. Add in if the SNP get their way, then they will become stronger.

Yes, I would love to vote in Labour or Lib Dems, if I could vote in a new government tomorrow I would, but again I ask you, if your life depended on it who do believe wins the next election? Add in the fact that even if they are voted out next election, they have a two/three year head start at tearing into workers rights, the damage by then will be very hard to repair.
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Nailed it.
 
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Rascal said:
It was allowed to become a right wing affair, to say its always been a RW affair dismisses the likes of Benn and Foot and Labour stood on a manifesto pledge to leave the EU in 1981. Labour became pro-EU under Blair and the Tories became more anti-EU because of Thatcher's mistrust of a united Germany after the Berlin wall fall. That pretty much started the Tory Eurosceptic cause because before that they were instrumental in the setting up of the EU free market rules. The anti EU propaganda is a symptom of us having a predominately RW media who are happy to cheerlead for the Tory party that is why its viewed as a Right Wing cause as well as having that odious **** Farage on board.

It still doesn't alter the fact that many on the left of the Labour party were as anti EU as many on the right of the Tory party. In a way being pro EU is a centrist position, being anti EU is where the where the further left and right wings of Labour and Tories meet, albeit for different reasons.
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Thank you for explaining those facts - that they come from someone that is clearly on the left of politics and is not a regular Leave supporting poster on this thread may mean that the truth of matters is listened to

Part of the problem - as I see it - is that there has been a narrative that Remainers have sought to establish - that people were not bothered about EU membership before 2016 etc.

The reality - and this is clearly commonsense - is that it was the Remain voters that did not understand the issues of EU membership and therefore contentedly voted for the status quo. Whereas those that did understand were generally actively against EU membership. There were a lot of people that understood the issues for a long time - 30 years in my case.

This claim of Brexit being a RWNJ thing is an attempted fallacy - not that many years ago Labour was the party against EU membership and the Tories were in support of it and its development beyond a trading bloc.

There has been a lot of revisionism on these threads
 
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