The Scottish Politics thread

[Saddleworth2]

Its a strange argument to believe it is hypocritical to support independence but abhor Brexit if you fundamentally and actively want to be part of the EU. After all, how else are we to regain membership if not through independence? Rely on a Labour party that let us down so badly during the original aftermath of the result and the second referendum campaign. No thanks.

Why is it hypocritical If you believe that the EU it is a force for good and in particular its objectives of free movement are aligned to the needs of your country, which they are big time. We need immigrants. If Scotland becomes an independent nation within the EU then it has all the advantages of being a member. It has pooled some of its sovereignty to become a member of that club but it still has gained so much more to manage its own economy and laws than it has now.

I suppose its a case of which Union do you want to be part of? One that is pretty well aligned to what you need as a small nation with all the advantages it brings or one that has a government which its citizens continue to reject and is increasingly looking insular and self harming.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Its a strange argument to believe it is hypocritical to support independence but abhor Brexit if you fundamentally and actively want to be part of the EU. After all, how else are we to regain membership if not through independence? Rely on a Labour party that let us down so badly during the original aftermath of the result and the second referendum campaign. No thanks.

Why is it hypocritical If you believe that the EU it is a force for good and in particular its objectives of free movement are aligned to the needs of your country, which they are big time. We need immigrants. If Scotland becomes an independent nation within the EU then it has all the advantages of being a member. It has pooled some of its sovereignty to become a member of that club but it still has gained so much more to manage its own economy and laws than it has now.

I suppose its a case of which Union do you want to be part of? One that is pretty well aligned to what you need as a small nation with all the advantages it brings or one that has a government which its citizens continue to reject and is increasingly looking insular and self harming.

You say that you need immigrants, but free movement from the EU has been in place for over 40 years, and those that have arrived have settled in England. I'm not saying nobody moved to Scotland, but they've not done so in any numbers, so how would they be attracted? Nobody moves to Spain or Greece for work, movement has always been towards the UK , Germany and other strong Northern European economies, and I believe that would continue, EU or not.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Its a strange argument to believe it is hypocritical to support independence but abhor Brexit if you fundamentally and actively want to be part of the EU. After all, how else are we to regain membership if not through independence? Rely on a Labour party that let us down so badly during the original aftermath of the result and the second referendum campaign. No thanks.

Why is it hypocritical If you believe that the EU it is a force for good and in particular its objectives of free movement are aligned to the needs of your country, which they are big time. We need immigrants. If Scotland becomes an independent nation within the EU then it has all the advantages of being a member. It has pooled some of its sovereignty to become a member of that club but it still has gained so much more to manage its own economy and laws than it has now.

I suppose its a case of which Union do you want to be part of? One that is pretty well aligned to what you need as a small nation with all the advantages it brings or one that has a government which its citizens continue to reject and is increasingly looking insular and self harming.

Nice attempt to re frame the argument, but the SNP argued just as vociferously for independence before brexit was even on the cards. It's precisely the same petty nationalistic fervour and divisive politics that drive both brexit and the SNP indy vote. I say that as someone who does support brexit and doesn't wish to see the UK broken up, which I acknowledge as a deeply hypocritical position btw, as the arguments for and against both are precisely the same. Just as rabid brexiteers will claim leaving the EU is a vote 'for' independence the SNP will claim similar for indy ref 2. Both are in fact negative protest votes against foreign rule - the SNP extolling EU membership is just a polite recognition of the flaws in their economic plan for an independent nation, and a mechanism/pretext for re-running the 'once in a generation' referendum that they lost. The sooner UKIP/Brexit party, EDL, DUP and the SNP disappear from UK politics the better. They are each symptoms of the same disease.

 

[Saddleworth2]

You say that you need immigrants, but free movement from the EU has been in place for over 40 years, and those that have arrived have settled in England. I'm not saying nobody moved to Scotland, but they've not done so in any numbers, so how would they be attracted? Nobody moves to Spain or Greece for work, movement has always been towards the UK , Germany and other strong Northern European economies, and I believe that would continue, EU or not.

You mean apart from the 500,000 that settled in Scotland 10% of the total population? That compares to 14% in England. Its less than England obviously but still a vital sector for public services and the economy as a whole.
Mate, our entire tourist industry used to be run by EU immigrants. Try and find a Scottish barman/waiter in the highlands or even Edinburgh. We have a reliance on them for agriculture as does England. There are deep historical ties between Scotland and Poland which means that many 1000's have chosen to live and work in Scotland.
If we are to expand our economy we will need more, not less.

Now we will need to see what impact Brexit has on that. Any reduction will have serious implications for tax revenues.

 

[Coatigan]

At least in 2014 there was so much optimism about. Misplaced or not, there was genuine positivity by most of at least almost half the country, as those for independence really believed in a bright future pursuing social values they cared for.

Similarly, many of those voting No had genuine hopes for the Union, better together, shared ideals as well as resources (excluding the fringe extemes of Both).

Now, it is mostly defeatism and negativity. Many going for independence, including almost all that seem to have switched since last time, seem to be accepting of having no other choice, or that the alternative is just that bad, and that their hopes have been pissed away.
And many (that i know) sticking with unionism because thats what they do truly believe in, see it as some last stand, doomed and slowly dying, with brexit making it bleak for everyone going forward.

The fucking despair of it all, who would have thought that we'd be looking back at 2014 (and the divisions That had) as a positive time!

 

[Saddleworth2]

Nice attempt to re frame the argument, but the SNP argued just as vociferously for independence before brexit was even on the cards. It's precisely the same petty nationalistic fervour and divisive politics that drive both brexit and the SNP indy vote. I say that as someone who does support brexit and doesn't wish to see the UK broken up, which I acknowledge as a deeply hypocritical position btw, as the arguments for and against both are precisely the same. Just as rabid brexiteers will claim leaving the EU is a vote 'for' independence the SNP will claim similar for indy ref 2. Both are in fact negative protest votes against foreign rule - the SNP extolling EU membership is just a polite recognition of the flaws in their economic plan for an independent nation, and a mechanism/pretext for re-running the 'once in a generation' referendum that they lost. The sooner UKIP/Brexit party, EDL, DUP and the SNP disappear from UK politics the better. They are each symptoms of the same disease.

Its what I believe mate and I think I'm entitled to that. Your response didnt really touch on any of the argument that I made, simply reverting to the old 'nationalism and division' argument. The SNP are simply a conduit. Every Scottish voter will need to make their own mind up what they believe to be the best route for the country.

Of course the SNP argued it was the best thing prior to Brexit, they have been consistent for 100 years on that. Where do you get the petty nationalistic fervour from though? I genuinely don't get that or see it. Lets see how the inyref 2 campaign is even framed prior to slagging it off. At least you admit Scotland is under 'foreign rule' ;-).

BTW nobody, and certainly not Salmon has any right to place a 'once in a generation' on a vote. Will of the people and all that, its called democracy. And how many voted in that initial referendum on the basis that voting 'no' ensured remaining in the EU? Circumstances have changed significantly because of Brexit, as have many Scots voting intentions and there will be a further vote.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Now, it is mostly defeatism and negativity. Many going for independence, including almost all that seem to have switched since last time, seem to be accepting of having no other choice, or that the alternative is just that bad, and that their hopes have been pissed away.

There is some truth in that although I wouldn't subscribe to it all being negative. I think that Brexit has proven to the Scots that this really is a Union of unequals and that their say at UK level is very insignificant (as is Wales and NI) and the Union is dominated by the larger country. Now you may say thats fair enough and fair enough it would be if the politics of the four nations were more or less well aligned. They are not though and the gap between Scotland and English politics has never been greater.

I think it is this realisation that as a nation we can be changed so profoundly by an exit from the EU that we did not support that has significantly changed the picture.

Its hard to feel positive during a pandemic other than praying that as many of your fellow citizens get through it safely as possible. Undoubtedly though we will see an end to that and have the task of rebuilding the economy. I happen to think we will do that better as an independent nation (ultimately) within the EU than as part of the UK.

 

[Ban-jani]

By that same logic, then everyone who voted Brexit should absolutely be supportive of Scottish independence? This resentment towards Scotland then is highly misplaced and those that accept brexit should at the very least 'get' scexit?

They should get it, yes. And by the looks of it most who support Brexit on here do get it.

I voted remain and would do if I had my time again. I’m also firmly against Scexit and more so than Brexit as it’ll be more damaging.

 

[Ban-jani]

At least in 2014 there was so much optimism about. Misplaced or not, there was genuine positivity by most of at least almost half the country, as those for independence really believed in a bright future pursuing social values they cared for.

Similarly, many of those voting No had genuine hopes for the Union, better together, shared ideals as well as resources (excluding the fringe extemes of Both).

Now, it is mostly defeatism and negativity. Many going for independence, including almost all that seem to have switched since last time, seem to be accepting of having no other choice, or that the alternative is just that bad, and that their hopes have been pissed away.
And many (that i know) sticking with unionism because thats what they do truly believe in, see it as some last stand, doomed and slowly dying, with brexit making it bleak for everyone going forward.

The fucking despair of it all, who would have thought that we'd be looking back at 2014 (and the divisions That had) as a positive time!

But again, you’re describing those in Labour heartlands who voted Brexit because they felt they had no choice but to roll the dice.

When people feel they have no choice, voting for something that’ll make your country worse off isn’t the way forward. Whatever negativity there is it’ll be amplified significantly when the affects of Scexit take hold.

 

[Coatigan]

Nice attempt to re frame the argument, but the SNP argued just as vociferously for independence before brexit was even on the cards. It's precisely the same petty nationalistic fervour and divisive politics that drive both brexit and the SNP indy vote. I say that as someone who does support brexit and doesn't wish to see the UK broken up, which I acknowledge as a deeply hypocritical position btw, as the arguments for and against both are precisely the same. Just as rabid brexiteers will claim leaving the EU is a vote 'for' independence the SNP will claim similar for indy ref 2. Both are in fact negative protest votes against foreign rule - the SNP extolling EU membership is just a polite recognition of the flaws in their economic plan for an independent nation, and a mechanism/pretext for re-running the 'once in a generation' referendum that they lost. The sooner UKIP/Brexit party, EDL, DUP and the SNP disappear from UK politics the better. They are each symptoms of the same disease.

Let's just bin both then, and get on with normal life, without constantly hurling blame at some outer, foreign (and by that i dont mean foreigner) influence!

Seriously though, if there was a way to close that bloody Brexit box, and with it, the indy box. Which btw Was closed till opening the brexit one Reopened it.

You are 100% right, the SNP did and would have continued to push independence. Without Brexit though, hollow background rhetoric that would have slowly diminished away, would have been always around on some easily accesible and visible shelf, but that would be it. Whoever used the word 'triggered' on here nailed it, brexit seems to have well triggered the breakup of the union. Sure it was the snp that 'started' it, and would always pursue it. Wouldn't have done it (still might not, although it continues to look more and more likely) without brexit.

You'll say, well that's democracy. true enough, but promoting/ backing some alternative choice to Not be part of that, however damaging or stubborn it may appear, is democracy too. There is at the moment absolutely nothing pulling either side hack towards a middle, nor does there seem to be any credible middle ground. Both Boris (who lets face it is really nothing but a more palatable and presentable face of Farage, and the support for him is really just repackaged Faragism) and Nicola (if you want to, you can argue the same and insert Salmond) have got support with opposite ends of the positions with no budge towards a middle. And it only seems to continue to pull in said directions.

 

[Ban-jani]

Its a strange argument to believe it is hypocritical to support independence but abhor Brexit if you fundamentally and actively want to be part of the EU. After all, how else are we to regain membership if not through independence? Rely on a Labour party that let us down so badly during the original aftermath of the result and the second referendum campaign. No thanks.

Why is it hypocritical If you believe that the EU it is a force for good and in particular its objectives of free movement are aligned to the needs of your country, which they are big time. We need immigrants. If Scotland becomes an independent nation within the EU then it has all the advantages of being a member. It has pooled some of its sovereignty to become a member of that club but it still has gained so much more to manage its own economy and laws than it has now.

I suppose its a case of which Union do you want to be part of? One that is pretty well aligned to what you need as a small nation with all the advantages it brings or one that has a government which its citizens continue to reject and is increasingly looking insular and self harming.

“All the benefits”

Well first of all it’s not guaranteed that you will just become a member of the EU, you might but it’s not guaranteed and I know we all love the word “fast-tracked” but even so it’ll take years.

Secondly, it’s not just going to be like when Scotland was in the EU as a UK member. The UK had vetos and power in the EU, being one of the three leading nations and having a say in how it was run.

Scotland will be one of the smallest nations in the EU and as a newbie, it’ll be totally different to last time. You will find that your influence and power is much much less than in it is in the UK, anyone can see that.

As a remainer I didn’t want to leave the EU as membership benefited us. I did not want to remain, however, because of some ideological and emotional attachment to the bloc, which in my opinion, would be a little weird if someone did feel that way over the UK Union, having fought two world wars together and progressed as a nation, together, for centuries, over 50 years of the EU.

You’re actually right, Scotland does need immigrants, it’s population is small compared to overcrowded England and that’s why there’s a difference in views on immigration, in both countries. But do you not see the potential for brain drain in Scotland? England will always be a much stronger economic power, whether it’s left the EU and Scotland hasn’t or not. London will still be one of the top financial cities in the world. Add to that the opportunity for Scots to leave for the likes of Germany to work, in the event of Scexit.

The situation will become pretty dire in Scotland if you vote yes and I actually see your population decreasing. My Glaswegian mate said he’s going to move his mother and brother down if it happens and ok, that’s just one guy but he’s a business owner and a smart bloke, he thinks it’s going to be a disaster.

Scotland leaving the UK in 2014 was actually a lesser damaging vote than it will be in the next 5 years. With both England and Scotland being in the Single Market, they could still maintain close ties, keep the border open and use the pound but now, there’s no choice but to be totally different and cut off from each other

The hypocrisy is that Scottish Indy supporting EU remainers don’t see that they’re the same as Brexiteers. They’re voting with heart over head because of their dissatisfaction with the centralised power, and they’re willing to cut off their nose to spite their face to get there.

I get that Scots are fed up with a decade of Tory government but they essentially helped to put them their and the country would have looked far far different if they had continued voting Labour. In fact Labour would have won in 2017 with the Scottish vote.

When you add that to the fact a Scot gets more spent on him than me, I find the moaning about how hard done to Scotland is a little tedious. I’ve never got what I wanted, I didn’t want Brexit and I don’t vote Tory.

 

[Saddleworth2]

“All the benefits”

Well first of all it’s not guaranteed that you will just become a member of the EU, you might but it’s not guaranteed and I know we all love the word “fast-tracked” but even so it’ll take years.

Secondly, it’s not just going to be like when Scotland was in the EU as a UK member. The UK had vetos and power in the EU, being one of the three leading nations and having a say in how it was run.

Scotland will be one of the smallest nations in the EU and as a newbie, it’ll be totally different to last time. You will find that your influence and power is much much less than in it is in the UK, anyone can see that.

As a remainer I didn’t want to leave the EU as membership benefited us. I did not want to remain, however, because of some ideological and emotional attachment to the bloc, which in my opinion, would be a little weird if someone did feel that way over the UK Union, having fought two world wars together and progressed as a nation, together, for centuries, over 50 years of the EU.

You’re actually right, Scotland does need immigrants, it’s population is small compared to overcrowded England and that’s why there’s a difference in views on immigration, in both countries. But do you not see the potential for brain drain in Scotland? England will always be a much stronger economic power, whether it’s left the EU and Scotland hasn’t or not. London will still be one of the top financial cities in the world. Add to that the opportunity for Scots to leave for the likes of Germany to work, in the event of Scexit.

The situation will become pretty dire in Scotland if you vote yes and I actually see your population decreasing. My Glaswegian mate said he’s going to move his mother and brother down if it happens and ok, that’s just one guy but he’s a business owner and a smart bloke, he thinks it’s going to be a disaster.

Scotland leaving the UK in 2014 was actually a lesser damaging vote than it will be in the next 5 years. With both England and Scotland being in the Single Market, they could still maintain close ties, keep the border open and use the pound but now, there’s no choice but to be totally different and cut off from each other

The hypocrisy is that Scottish Indy supporting EU remainers don’t see that they’re the same as Brexiteers. They’re voting with heart over head because of their dissatisfaction with the centralised power, and they’re willing to cut off their nose to spite their face to get there.

I get that Scots are fed up with a decade of Tory government but they essentially helped to put them their and the country would have looked far far different if they had continued voting Labour. In fact Labour would have won in 2017 with the Scottish vote.

When you add that to the fact a Scot gets more spent on him than me, I find the moaning about how hard done to Scotland is a little tedious. I’ve never got what I wanted, I didn’t want Brexit and I don’t vote Tory.

As usual mate, you refuse to actually read and try and understand what is being said. You would far rather just regurgitate your opinion as if it were fact while not addressing the salient point.

There is no hypocrisy in believing a Union with the EU is preferable to a Union within the U.K. That opinion might be right, it might be wrong but it’s not hypocrisy.

Now we know that neither of us values the others opinion so why do you keep responding to my posts? Please don’t waste your valuable time.

 

[west didsblue]

Aaaah
Perhaps those poor dismissed and disdained citizens of those nations should have been given two votes each?

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Let's just bin both then, and get on with normal life, without constantly hurling blame at some outer, foreign (and by that i dont mean foreigner) influence!

Seriously though, if there was a way to close that bloody Brexit box, and with it, the indy box. Which btw Was closed till opening the brexit one Reopened it.

You are 100% right, the SNP did and would have continued to push independence. Without Brexit though, hollow background rhetoric that would have slowly diminished away, would have been always around on some easily accesible and visible shelf, but that would be it. Whoever used the word 'triggered' on here nailed it, brexit seems to have well triggered the breakup of the union. Sure it was the snp that 'started' it, and would always pursue it. Wouldn't have done it (still might not, although it continues to look more and more likely) without brexit.

You'll say, well that's democracy. true enough, but promoting/ backing some alternative choice to Not be part of that, however damaging or stubborn it may appear, is democracy too. There is at the moment absolutely nothing pulling either side hack towards a middle, nor does there seem to be any credible middle ground. Both Boris (who lets face it is really nothing but a more palatable and presentable face of Farage, and the support for him is really just repackaged Faragism) and Nicola (if you want to, you can argue the same and insert Salmond) have got support with opposite ends of the positions with no budge towards a middle. And it only seems to continue to pull in said directions.

Nicola is a centre left politician. The SNP are a centre left party. I am really surprised that you equate them as something different. They are less than perfect in Government for sure but they keep getting voted in because their policies are better than the oppositions. It is crass in the extreme to compare her with Farage. The polls tell us that she Is attracting the middle ground in Scotland which is why she will win both the election and any subsequent referendum.

 

[west didsblue]

“All the benefits”

Well first of all it’s not guaranteed that you will just become a member of the EU, you might but it’s not guaranteed and I know we all love the word “fast-tracked” but even so it’ll take years.

Secondly, it’s not just going to be like when Scotland was in the EU as a UK member. The UK had vetos and power in the EU, being one of the three leading nations and having a say in how it was run.

Scotland will be one of the smallest nations in the EU and as a newbie, it’ll be totally different to last time. You will find that your influence and power is much much less than in it is in the UK, anyone can see that.

As a remainer I didn’t want to leave the EU as membership benefited us. I did not want to remain, however, because of some ideological and emotional attachment to the bloc, which in my opinion, would be a little weird if someone did feel that way over the UK Union, having fought two world wars together and progressed as a nation, together, for centuries, over 50 years of the EU.

You’re actually right, Scotland does need immigrants, it’s population is small compared to overcrowded England and that’s why there’s a difference in views on immigration, in both countries. But do you not see the potential for brain drain in Scotland? England will always be a much stronger economic power, whether it’s left the EU and Scotland hasn’t or not. London will still be one of the top financial cities in the world. Add to that the opportunity for Scots to leave for the likes of Germany to work, in the event of Scexit.

The situation will become pretty dire in Scotland if you vote yes and I actually see your population decreasing. My Glaswegian mate said he’s going to move his mother and brother down if it happens and ok, that’s just one guy but he’s a business owner and a smart bloke, he thinks it’s going to be a disaster.

Scotland leaving the UK in 2014 was actually a lesser damaging vote than it will be in the next 5 years. With both England and Scotland being in the Single Market, they could still maintain close ties, keep the border open and use the pound but now, there’s no choice but to be totally different and cut off from each other

The hypocrisy is that Scottish Indy supporting EU remainers don’t see that they’re the same as Brexiteers. They’re voting with heart over head because of their dissatisfaction with the centralised power, and they’re willing to cut off their nose to spite their face to get there.

I get that Scots are fed up with a decade of Tory government but they essentially helped to put them their and the country would have looked far far different if they had continued voting Labour. In fact Labour would have won in 2017 with the Scottish vote.

When you add that to the fact a Scot gets more spent on him than me, I find the moaning about how hard done to Scotland is a little tedious. I’ve never got what I wanted, I didn’t want Brexit and I don’t vote Tory.

Repeating the same opinions as facts time and again doesn’t change them from being opinions into being facts.

 

[west didsblue]

You say that you need immigrants, but free movement from the EU has been in place for over 40 years, and those that have arrived have settled in England. I'm not saying nobody moved to Scotland, but they've not done so in any numbers, so how would they be attracted? Nobody moves to Spain or Greece for work, movement has always been towards the UK , Germany and other strong Northern European economies, and I believe that would continue, EU or not.

Clearly you’ve never been to Scotland or haven’t paid much attention while you were there.

 

[Ban-jani]

As usual mate, you refuse to actually read and try and understand what is being said. You would far rather just regurgitate your opinion as if it were fact while not addressing the salient point.

There is no hypocrisy in believing a Union with the EU is preferable to a Union within the U.K. That opinion might be right, it might be wrong but it’s not hypocrisy.

Now we know that neither of us values the others opinion so why do you keep responding to my posts? Please don’t waste your valuable time.

I do value your opinion, it’s why I engage with you, I’m just trying to get you to see why your support for independence is incredibly similar to the support for Brexit.

I don’t know why you get your back up about it and always try to suggest we should ignore each other, healthy discussion is good and if we all agreed it would be boring.

The hypocrisy is, as I’ve said, that both campaigns are a vote to move away from a centralised parliament, because of discontent, even though you have the ability to change it, and the result will be a disaster for your country.

It’s heart over head and that’s never good in politics.

Another example of the hypocrisy is that the English nationalists are seen as pure evil and Scottish nationalists not. If Farage launched one of his new political parties on St George’s day, many on here would be calling him a fascist. But it’s ok for Sturgeon to announce a nationalist agenda on St Andrew’s day?

I am consistent, I don’t like either.

 

[Ban-jani]

Repeating the same opinions as facts time and again doesn’t change them from being opinions into being facts.

That’s a poor response, why don’t you pick apart why I’m wrong rather than saying “your opinion is just your opinion”- of course it is.

Doesn’t everyone give their opinion on here in the same way, or is it just those that agree with you are allowed to?

 

[Saddleworth2]

I do value your opinion, it’s why I engage with you, I’m just trying to get you to see why your support for independence is incredibly similar to the support for Brexit.

I don’t know why you get your back up about it and always try to suggest we should ignore each other, healthy discussion is good and if we all agreed it would be boring.

The hypocrisy is, as I’ve said, that both campaigns are a vote to move away from a centralised parliament, because of discontent, even though you have the ability to change it, and the result will be a disaster for your country.

It’s heart over head and that’s never good in politics.

Another example of the hypocrisy is that the English nationalists are seen as pure evil and Scottish nationalists not. If Farage launched one of his new political parties on St George’s day, many on here would be calling him a fascist. But it’s ok for Sturgeon to announce a nationalist agenda on St Andrew’s day?

I am consistent, I don’t like either.

Our past engagements have not been particularly fruitful or pleasant. I respect your right to hold the opinion you do, I just fundamentally disagree with the majority of stuff you post on this subject. I find it very strong on opinion but very light on fact or open minded challenge.

tell you what, if you can articulate why I am a hypocrite believing that Scotland is better as an independent nation within the Eu rather than a limited devolved nation within the U.K. I will re-engage. I’m looking for the reason why I’m a hypocrite rather than the reason why I’m wrong to hold that opinion. A retraction of your view that it is hypocrisy would also suffice.

 

[west didsblue]

That’s a poor response, why don’t you pick apart why I’m wrong rather than saying “your opinion is just your opinion”- of course it is.

Doesn’t everyone give their opinion on here in the same way, or is it just those that agree with you are allowed to?

Because we've had the same discussion time and again and there are no new points that I want to make. And no, not everyone gives their opinion in the same way. With most people, it's clear that an opinion is an opinion. You're opinions are stated as categorical facts with no supporting evidence.