As are yours.Because we've had the same discussion time and again and there are no new points that I want to make. And no, not everyone gives their opinion in the same way. With most people, it's clear that an opinion is an opinion. You're opinions are stated as categorical facts with no supporting evidence.
I didn’t mean merely holding that view makes you a hypocrite. I meant that being against Brexit and criticising Brexit supporters for their view, makes you a hypocrite if you then support independence. (Not you specifically that’s a general view to anyone).Our past engagements have not been particularly fruitful or pleasant. I respect your right to hold the opinion you do, I just fundamentally disagree with the majority of stuff you post on this subject. I find it very strong on opinion but very light on fact or open minded challenge.
tell you what, if you can articulate why I am a hypocrite believing that Scotland is better as an independent nation within the Eu rather than a limited devolved nation within the U.K. I will re-engage. I’m looking for the reason why I’m a hypocrite rather than the reason why I’m wrong to hold that opinion. A retraction of your view that it is hypocrisy would also suffice.
Fair enough. I'm not trying to pour a bucket of cold piss on indy ref 2 as that is just the sort of arrogance south of the border that might just make it happen. Just also aware that the SNP would be after another and another until they get what they want regardless of the circumstances.Its what I believe mate and I think I'm entitled to that. Your response didnt really touch on any of the argument that I made, simply reverting to the old 'nationalism and division' argument. The SNP are simply a conduit. Every Scottish voter will need to make their own mind up what they believe to be the best route for the country.
Of course the SNP argued it was the best thing prior to Brexit, they have been consistent for 100 years on that. Where do you get the petty nationalistic fervour from though? I genuinely don't get that or see it. Lets see how the inyref 2 campaign is even framed prior to slagging it off. At least you admit Scotland is under 'foreign rule' ;-).
BTW nobody, and certainly not Salmon has any right to place a 'once in a generation' on a vote. Will of the people and all that, its called democracy. And how many voted in that initial referendum on the basis that voting 'no' ensured remaining in the EU? Circumstances have changed significantly because of Brexit, as have many Scots voting intentions and there will be a further vote.
I have not once said it will be alright from day 1.As are yours.
You’ve specially stated that Scotland will be given special treatment by the EU and there’s absolutely zero evidence for that.
At least with my views they’re based on past admissions into the EU and the fact that MFN will have to be considered, so there will be a proper border.
What do you base your “it’ll be alright” on?
Most of that is a fair view point to take but one particular line I couldn’t disagree more with is Scotland’s deficit is down to Westminster’s management of it. It’s not even usually up for debate that the SNP had driven up and mismanaged Scotland’s deficit, they’ve actually done a worse job the more power they’ve been given and Scotland, per head of Population, may end up with a worse death rate for Covid than England, I saw that this week.I have not once said it will be alright from day 1.
I have not disagreed that there will need to be a border if the UK follows through with its aim of having its own customs jurisdiction. I have even pointed out that setting up a border will only involve two major roads and a relatively small number of minor ones and that there is no history of violence to prevent infrastructure being put in place.
I have agreed that it will be difficult for some time, but where we differ is that I believe that ultimately Scotland has sufficient resources of its own to make a success of it within a single market of 450 million and I believe that it is in the EU's interests to help it along the way and not be unnecessarily obstructive. I think that directly comparing Scotland to other accession states is misleading because Scotland has been living by EU regulations for 47 years and there would not need to be the same level of transition.
We know that they have a deficit to address but that deficit is there in large part due to UK policies and the Scottish government will have more powers to change things. It won't be easy but I think they will be able to attract businesses that want an English speaking base within the EU (although they will need to avoid Glasgow if that's the case!).
Just my opinion and I'm prepared to accept I might be wrong and they could be in the shit for generations.
The sooner UKIP/Brexit party, EDL, DUP and the SNP disappear from UK politics the better. They are each symptoms of the same disease.
BTW nobody, and certainly not Salmon has any right to place a 'once in a generation' on a vote. Will of the people and all that, its called democracy. And how many voted in that initial referendum on the basis that voting 'no' ensured remaining in the EU? Circumstances have changed significantly because of Brexit, as have many Scots voting intentions and there will be a further vote.
Well the data does back up his point, here is the populations of Scotland for the last 60 years:Clearly you’ve never been to Scotland or haven’t paid much attention while you were there.
| 1961 | 5,179,000 | +1.6% |
|---|---|---|
| 1971 | 5,229,000 | +1.0% |
| 1981 | 5,035,000 | −3.7% |
| 1991 | 5,083,000 | +1.0% |
| 2001 | 5,062,011 | −0.4% |
| 2011 | 5,295,403 | +4.6% |
| 2019 | 5,463,300 | +3.2% |
| 1961 | 41,159,213 | +6.4% |
|---|---|---|
| 1971 | 43,460,525 | +5.6% |
| 1981 | 45,978,080 | +5.8% |
| 1991 | 48,197,672 | +4.8% |
| 2001 | 49,138,831 | +2.0% |
| 2011 | 53,012,456 | +7.9% |
| 2019 | 56,286,961 | +6.2% |
There is some truth in that although I wouldn't subscribe to it all being negative. I think that Brexit has proven to the Scots that this really is a Union of unequals and that their say at UK level is very insignificant (as is Wales and NI) and the Union is dominated by the larger country. Now you may say thats fair enough and fair enough it would be if the politics of the four nations were more or less well aligned. They are not though and the gap between Scotland and English politics has never been greater.
I think it is this realisation that as a nation we can be changed so profoundly by an exit from the EU that we did not support that has significantly changed the picture.
Its hard to feel positive during a pandemic other than praying that as many of your fellow citizens get through it safely as possible. Undoubtedly though we will see an end to that and have the task of rebuilding the economy. I happen to think we will do that better as an independent nation (ultimately) within the EU than as part of the UK.
Thankfully the BNP are dead.Don't forget the BNP too mate. These 'national parties' are all wrinkles on the same scrotum.
I didn't say Westminster manages their debt. I was talking about overall government policies that have led over many years to a concentration of investment in South East England to the detriment of the rest of England as well as the other nations, and a brain drain towards London.Most of that is a fair view point to take but one particular line I couldn’t disagree more with is Scotland’s deficit is down to Westminster’s management of it. It’s not even usually up for debate that the SNP had driven up and mismanaged Scotland’s deficit, they’ve actually done a worse job the more power they’ve been given and Scotland, per head of Population, may end up with a worse death rate for Covid than England, I saw that this week.
That’s not an attack on the Scottish people, just their government.
Regarding the border infrastructure, you’re right it won’t lead to bombs or attacks on the guards etc. but not being able to travel between the two countries freely, will course huge issues for businesses and people.
The problem with it being difficult for some time is that Scotland’s financial issues will get significantly worse and are getting worse every day, due to Covid-19 (as is happening anywhere) and they will have to take their part of the UK debt. For it then to become more difficult for a period of time whilst they transition to the EU, it’s going to be much worse.
Regarding your point about them being aligned to the EU, I don’t disagree, however even the fastest joining of the EU will take at least 3 years. I can’t see how it’ll be instant, based on what’s happened before, especially when the EU would have to bend its own rules to let them in.
The major problem is disconnect from the rest of the UK, that’s not 40+ years, that’s centuries of having all aspects of infrastructure, government, security and defence intwined with the rest of the UK.
I’ll say it as my opinion... that will be the hardest part for them.
I will just add that I do support their right to vote on it once Brexit has settled down, in a handful of years and if they vote to leave then good luck to them, I just think it’ll be a disaster.
How does that back up the fact that there are no immigrants in Scotland?Well the data does back up his point, here is the populations of Scotland for the last 60 years:
1961 5,179,000 +1.6% 1971 5,229,000 +1.0% 1981 5,035,000 −3.7% 1991 5,083,000 +1.0% 2001 5,062,011 −0.4% 2011 5,295,403 +4.6% 2019 5,463,300 +3.2%
Same period for England:
1961 41,159,213 +6.4% 1971 43,460,525 +5.6% 1981 45,978,080 +5.8% 1991 48,197,672 +4.8% 2001 49,138,831 +2.0% 2011 53,012,456 +7.9% 2019 56,286,961 +6.2%
But again, you’re describing those in Labour heartlands who voted Brexit because they felt they had no choice but to roll the dice.
When people feel they have no choice, voting for something that’ll make your country worse off isn’t the way forward. Whatever negativity there is it’ll be amplified significantly when the affects of Scexit take hold.
That’s a fair challenge mate. You read the SCG report and I’ll reread the Lisbon treaty and we will compare notes. Scotland has devolved powers which are welcome. It does not have influence within the U.K. it couldn’t stop Brexit and it can’t stop a Tory government irrespective of who it votes for.Scotland are far more influential in the UK than they ever will be in the EU.
I ask you to read The Lisbon Treaty and every addendum on the qualified voting system before commenting further :)
Bloody hell, it is not a fact that there are no immigrants in Scotland, it’s a fairy story. They make up 10% of population.How does that back up the fact that there are no immigrants in Scotland?
An explanation could easily be the migration of Scots to England at a similar rate of the migration of immigrants from the rest of the world to Scotland.
There's jocks everywhere.
Nicola is a centre left politician. The SNP are a centre left party. I am really surprised that you equate them as something different. They are less than perfect in Government for sure but they keep getting voted in because their policies are better than the oppositions. It is crass in the extreme to compare her with Farage. The polls tell us that she Is attracting the middle ground in Scotland which is why she will win both the election and any subsequent referendum.
Fair enough I do get that first point. Of course Brexit and Covid and other aspects of Westminsters policies have had a huge bearing on the whole of the UK’s deficit/debt. However, the SNP have been poor with their management of it.I didn't say Westminster manages their debt. I was talking about overall government policies that have led over many years to a concentration of investment in South East England to the detriment of the rest of England as well as the other nations, and a brain drain towards London.
As you say, it could easily take 3 years and longer for full EU membership to be gained but there is no reason why single market access would not be given in a much shorter timescale if there is an agreement that they are on the road to accession.
I agree with your point about the disconnect from the UK. That will be hugely difficult and may be mitigated to some extent by a future UK government not being averse to re-alignment with the EU and not being ideologically opposed to EU co-operation. But even if that were the case, disconnecting social security, pensions, health, defence etc will be hugely complex and will take many years of transition, as will sorting out their fiscal position. That doesn't mean it couldn't be done.
If I have I apologise. I thought you were comparing the two. What did you mean?i think you have misunderstood what i said.
There are blatantly immigrants in Scotland, I went up twice last year and there are many. That said the graph merely highlights the level of immigration into Scotland is nowhere near that of England.How does that back up the fact that there are no immigrants in Scotland?
An explanation could easily be the migration of Scots to England at a similar rate of the migration of immigrants from the rest of the world to Scotland.
There's jocks everywhere.
Yes I know. It was Ancient who suggested that.Bloody hell, it is not a fact that there are no immigrants in Scotland, it’s a fairy story. They make up 10% of population.