The Scottish Politics thread

[Ban-jani]

Maybe not, but that is democracy is it not? All votes count equally, for whatever reason. Is that not what we now celebrate with brexit?

Oh absolutely I agree.

We have to leave the EU now we voted for it and I’m all for Scotland having a vote to leave the U.K. if they wish to, but only once Brexit has settled down. It wouldn’t be fair to hold the vote in the middle of the UK’s trade discussions, when the SNP themselves said it was once in a generation.

I think they should have a vote following the new parliamentary term in 2024 and if they vote to leave then good luck to them.

I’m not against them being able to do it, I’m against the Yes vote because it’s lunacy.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Fair enough I do get that first point. Of course Brexit and Covid and other aspects of Westminsters policies have had a huge bearing on the whole of the UK’s deficit/debt. However, the SNP have been poor with their management of it.

Regarding they the SM, they could join EFTA as a springboard and maybe EFTA would accept them, however a senior member in Norway’s government, I think I recall, was apprehensive about the UK joining, when that was suggested a few years ago. So who knows.

Last paragraph- yes it certainly can happen but just like the UK can leave the EU and not totally collapse, it’s not a good idea.

As poor as the U.K. Government sucking £133bn in debt interest repayments over the last 30 years. Debt created at Uk level when Scotland was in surplus. Don’t you think that has a little more impact than the SNP management over the last few years?

 

[west didsblue]

Fair enough I do get that first point. Of course Brexit and Covid and other aspects of Westminsters policies have had a huge bearing on the whole of the UK’s deficit/debt. However, the SNP have been poor with their management of it.

Regarding they the SM, they could join EFTA as a springboard and maybe EFTA would accept them, however a senior member in Norway’s government, I think I recall, was apprehensive about the UK joining, when that was suggested a few years ago. So who knows.

Last paragraph- yes it certainly can happen but just like the UK can leave the EU and not totally collapse, it’s not a good idea.

It doesn't have to be via EFTA anyway, although I suspect EFTA would be more amenable to Scotland than to the UK as a whole because Scotland would not become the de facto leader due to its size. Geographically it fits between Norway and Iceland and there are some cultural ties.

 

[Ban-jani]

As poor as the U.K. Government sucking £133bn in debt interest repayments over the last 30 years. Debt created at Uk level when Scotland was in surplus. Don’t you think that has a little more impact than the SNP management over the last few years?

If you think I’m some sort of defender of the U.K. government, you’re wrong.

That doesn’t take away the fact that the SNP have been poor still, does it?

 

[Saddleworth2]

If you think I’m some sort of defender of the U.K. government, you’re wrong.

That doesn’t take away the fact that the SNP have been poor still, does it?

If you tell me how they have been poor at managing the deficit I might be able to respond. You do acknowledge my point though don’t you?

 

[Coatigan]

If I have I apologise. I thought you were comparing the two. What did you mean?

i was comparing two forces of inertia. not their political positions/convictions.

by middle ground indont mean centre of a left to right political spectrum, but middle of absolutes, that they both are unmovable on.

 

[Ban-jani]

It doesn't have to be via EFTA anyway, although I suspect EFTA would be more amenable to Scotland than to the UK as a whole because Scotland would not become the de facto leader due to its size. Geographically it fits between Norway and Iceland and there are some cultural ties.

EFTA is a more modest target for them to join, however it’s not entirely straight forward either.

The key challenge again would be the transition away from the U.K.. When the U.K. was rumoured in the press about joining EFTA, the biggest issue was its transition away from the EU as stated below. There could be issues regarding a much messier transition away from the U.K. for Scotland:

What could complicate matters is the nature of any transitional arrangements regarding the UK’s departure from the EU and its customs union. Whether the UK’s withdrawal from the EEA is amicably negotiated could also have a bearing.

The process would not stop with agreement on the terms of accession and the EFTA Council’s green light. The council’s decision would also require domestic approval in each of the EFTA states.

 

[Ban-jani]

If you tell me how they have been poor at managing the deficit I might be able to respond. You do acknowledge my point though don’t you?

I am not sure you’d take my word for it but if you can please read this article in the Guardian from last year.

It sums up the SNP’s arrogance and naivety to a tie IMO, with their response:

Redirect Notice

www.google.co.uk

 

[Coatigan]

Thankfully the BNP are dead.

They are not. They became ukip, then the brexit party and are now a chunk of the tory support.

 

[Ban-jani]

They are not. They became ukip, then the brexit party and are now a chunk of the tory support.

I think that’s disingenuous.

You know full well that the BNP was more extreme than UKIP and the Brexit Party. Under Farage’s leadership you were not allowed to join those parties if you were ex BNP.

I don’t like Farage, he’s got completely different views to me and he’s like a character from Dad’s Army... but he’s not Nick Griffin.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I am not sure you’d take my word for it but if you can please read this article in the Guardian from last year.

It sums up the SNP’s arrogance and naivety to a tie IMO, with their response:

Redirect Notice

www.google.co.uk

I’ll read it if you read this. From Business for Scotland.



In the 1970s, Scottish oil revenues stopped the UK from going bust and requiring a bailout, but they were not enough to stop the UK debt mountain from growing. Scotland was then allocated a population percentage share of the costs of servicing that debt as well. Despite this double bailout of the UK, Scotland’s economy and its finances still managed to show a higher GDP per head and lower illustrative deficits than the UK until 2015. At that point, the UK’s mishandling of Scotland’s oil and gas wealth caught up with it and it decided to slash Scotland’s oil revenues by reducing the tax on oil extraction, which finally made Scotland’s finances look worse than the rest of the UK’s.

But it’s the UK’s deficit, not Scotland’s. If an independent Scotland had done the daftest thing it could have done with its historical surpluses, then as a nation, Scotland would be £508bn richer than GERS suggests it is, as part of the UK. If it had simply copied Norway, Scotland would have £547.5bn in a Scottish wealth fund right now.

It’s fair to say that in 2014 many people just didn’t believe Business for Scotland when we explained that Westminster was completely economically incompetent, that Westminster truly didn’t care about the impact of its policies on Scotland and was deliberately acting against Scotland’s best interests.

Now, however, Brexit is making that thinking mainstream, and slowly but surely, as Brexit unravels, more and more people are beginning to see that Scotland cannot afford to continue subsidising this failing, disinterested and dysfunctional Union. The UK economy is in a fragile state and has not yet recovered from the 2007 financial crash, despite more than a decade of austerity and real terms cuts to public spending on essential services.

The evidence is clear. The UK Government has created a situation where Scotland’s finances show a false deficit, one that is not related to the economic performance of Scotland. Pro-Union politicians and the highly biased mainstream media point to that false deficit and say that it is proof that Scotland can’t afford independence.

This will continue until the SNP Government becomes more assertive, and gets better at explaining that what GERS actually proves, emphatically, is that Scotland’s economy is remarkably resilient and resistant to oil price fluctuations, that it is under-performing due to carrying the weight of generations of Westminster debt, economic incompetence and wrong-headed thinking on its back.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

An extract from Sturgeons speech to SNP conference.
maybe for those that think she is Farage in a skirt could just take a little time to recognise the humanity and decency in her words that make her popular in Scotland.


‘Recently, I came across a photo taken just after my speech to conference last autumn.The auditorium was packed and the photo shows me hugging an elderly lady at the side of the stage.

When I look at it now – normal human connection in the midst of a crowded event – it’s like viewing a different world. A bygone age.

That’s the cruelty of Covid.
It has turned those cherished connections between people and countries into our biggest vulnerability.Borders have been closed, travel restricted, and we’ve been forced to live most of this year apart from our nearest and dearest.

This has been, and still is, the toughest of times.

The challenges we’ve faced, and the sacrifices we’ve all been asked to make, would have been unthinkable this time last year.

If you feel utterly exhausted by it all, believe me, you’re not alone.
Politicians usually run a mile from admitting human frailty.
But these aren’t normal times.

I don’t mind saying that these last 9 months have been the hardest of my life.

I’ve had many dark days and sleepless nights, struggling with the horrendous choices the pandemic has forced upon us.

At times I’ve felt completely overwhelmed – as I’m sure many of you have. And I feel a deep sadness for the lives that have been lost.

Not a single day passes that I don’t think of families who are grieving.

Like governments everywhere, ours has had to wrestle with almost impossible decisions. Every action necessary to reduce the harm of the virus and save lives, puts jobs and businesses on the line and causes suffering in so many other ways.

But without those necessary measures, more lives will be lost.

I’ve done my best to get these decisions as right as I can. And I’ve had the support of an outstanding team of ministers and advisers.

I can never thank them enough.
But I know we’ve made mistakes.
And the responsibility for that is mine and mine alone.

I feel it deeply, and I always will.

Isn't it strange ...... actually seeing what leadership looks like.

 

[Ban-jani]

I’ll read it if you read this. From Business for Scotland.



In the 1970s, Scottish oil revenues stopped the UK from going bust and requiring a bailout, but they were not enough to stop the UK debt mountain from growing. Scotland was then allocated a population percentage share of the costs of servicing that debt as well. Despite this double bailout of the UK, Scotland’s economy and its finances still managed to show a higher GDP per head and lower illustrative deficits than the UK until 2015. At that point, the UK’s mishandling of Scotland’s oil and gas wealth caught up with it and it decided to slash Scotland’s oil revenues by reducing the tax on oil extraction, which finally made Scotland’s finances look worse than the rest of the UK’s.

But it’s the UK’s deficit, not Scotland’s. If an independent Scotland had done the daftest thing it could have done with its historical surpluses, then as a nation, Scotland would be £508bn richer than GERS suggests it is, as part of the UK. If it had simply copied Norway, Scotland would have £547.5bn in a Scottish wealth fund right now.

It’s fair to say that in 2014 many people just didn’t believe Business for Scotland when we explained that Westminster was completely economically incompetent, that Westminster truly didn’t care about the impact of its policies on Scotland and was deliberately acting against Scotland’s best interests.

Now, however, Brexit is making that thinking mainstream, and slowly but surely, as Brexit unravels, more and more people are beginning to see that Scotland cannot afford to continue subsidising this failing, disinterested and dysfunctional Union. The UK economy is in a fragile state and has not yet recovered from the 2007 financial crash, despite more than a decade of austerity and real terms cuts to public spending on essential services.

The evidence is clear. The UK Government has created a situation where Scotland’s finances show a false deficit, one that is not related to the economic performance of Scotland. Pro-Union politicians and the highly biased mainstream media point to that false deficit and say that it is proof that Scotland can’t afford independence.

This will continue until the SNP Government becomes more assertive, and gets better at explaining that what GERS actually proves, emphatically, is that Scotland’s economy is remarkably resilient and resistant to oil price fluctuations, that it is under-performing due to carrying the weight of generations of Westminster debt, economic incompetence and wrong-headed thinking on its back.

I have read it and it’s about an independent and balanced source as reading about Brexit from UKIP’s website.

What’s the point in sharing that? Have you seen Business for Scotland’s website?

It’s not wonder you think independence is a good idea if you’re getting your information from there.

 

[Ban-jani]

Isn't it strange ...... actually seeing what leadership looks like.

Yes because lying and covering up to your country about your totally destructive main policy is brilliant leadership.

The open alliance some anti-Tory people have with nationalists in Scotland is creepy.

You’ll soon realise the enemy of your enemy isn’t your friend and rather than supporting this woman, who wishes to cause Brexit on steroids, you’d be best to back Labour and Starmer.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I am not sure you’d take my word for it but if you can please read this article in the Guardian from last year.

It sums up the SNP’s arrogance and naivety to a tie IMO, with their response:

Redirect Notice

www.google.co.uk

Depends how you look at it. One way of looking at it is to think the whole GERs system is designed to make Scotland economy look worse than it is. A large proportion of the costs allocated to Scotland are not actually spent in Scotland. Then there is the question of cutting oil extraction taxes which reduced oil revenues. This will be a huge battle ground if a second referendum votes yes. The article I posted is as biased the other way albeit I can’t factually find fault with it. What is written about past historical Scottish surplus is true.

 

[Ban-jani]

Depends how you look at it. One way of looking at it is to think the whole GERs system is designed to make Scotland economy look worse than it is. A large proportion of the costs allocated to Scotland are not actually spent in Scotland. Then there is the question of cutting oil extraction taxes which reduced oil revenues. This will be a huge battle ground if a second referendum votes yes. The article I posted is as biased the other way albeit I can’t factually find fault with it. What is written about past historical Scottish surplus is true.

I don’t think you can keep a straight face and state it’s as biased as my article, nor that GERS is fabricating or bending figures to make Scotland worse, whilst “Business for Scotland” are on a level with them.

It’s like comparing ONS data with UKIP’s website.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I have read it and it’s about an independent and balanced source as reading about Brexit from UKIP’s website.

What’s the point in sharing that? Have you seen Business for Scotland’s website?

It’s not wonder you think independence is a good idea if you’re getting your information from there.

It’s as balanced as you are. As you know, I read many things about the subject both pro and agin. You should try it. Are you suggesting what I share and don’t share now? Maybe I posted it so that folks can factually point out it’s errors for the education of all of us. Would you like to have a go?

 

[Ban-jani]

It’s as balanced as you are. As you know, I read many things about the subject both pro and agin. You should try it. Are you suggesting what I share and don’t share now? Maybe I posted it so that folks can factually point out it’s errors for the education of all of us. Would you like to have a go?

If it’s as balanced as I am, surely you’ll be posting my views then in future, on this topic?

The point of using sources is to move away from our own biases on a subject. I used the Guardian because they’re centre left, politically aligned to the SNP and maybe not pro independence but not hostile to it either. You went straight for a source that’s homepage has cartoons on, taking the piss out of and attacking Tories.

I am not suggesting you do anything though, you can post what you like, but I don’t have to take your source seriously, I actually value your opinion more than BFS. I just wanted to highlight you’re posting “Business for Scotland” (all people need to do is check their website) and I’m posting from the Guardian, who by the way are also anti-Westminster at this time.

The conspiracy is that mentioning of the false deficit. I checked online to see if there were any independent sources reporting this and the first Google page just came back with Nationalist publications and smaller website backing independence. That confirmed to be the 7x deficit claim that the Guardian quoted, is actually likely correct.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

You mean apart from the 500,000 that settled in Scotland 10% of the total population? That compares to 14% in England. Its less than England obviously but still a vital sector for public services and the economy as a whole. all from EU countries, o
Mate, our entire tourist industry used to be run by EU immigrants. Try and find a Scottish barman/waiter in the highlands or even Edinburgh. We have a reliance on them for agriculture as does England. There are deep historical ties between Scotland and Poland which means that many 1000's have chosen to live and work in Scotland.
If we are to expand our economy we will need more, not less.

Now we will need to see what impact Brexit has on that. Any reduction will have serious implications for tax revenues.

Fair enough, is that 500,000 all from EU countries, or is some of it English folk that live there?

 

[Saddleworth2]

Fair enough, is that 500,000 all from EU countries, or is some of it English folk that live there?

No thats all overseas - 50% EU, 50% other.