The Scottish Politics thread

[Coatigan]

IMO the most sensible opinion you’ve offered on this thread.

From my Hibernian aspect, I’ve followed the logic of my Caledonian brethren on here and found no hypocrisy nor left wing nationalism in the logic they offer for their leanings in the choices offered to them.

Not all arguments are purely economical but, In their shoes, I would be asking how is best to limit the damage long term, from leaving the EU.
By remaining in a smaller Union or exiting it and hoping to rejoin a bigger Union again.
From an economical view it would come down to which option is more damaging and long term, but there is an emotive element to it too.

Good luck to all involved.
There are no easy decisions and no quick fixes.

There really IS the aspect of heart vs mind as well though. And funnily enough what many of those 'England First' (in the name of the union, of course) don't seem to recognize is that it does exist both ways.

So yes while there are plenty of Scot independence hopefuls, that can be described of as going for it with disregard for the economy out of a pure 'heart but no mind' desire, there similarly definitely are lots of unionists, that in 2014 And today believe(d) Scotland CAN do it alone, but, have an emotional,
life-long attachment to the union, the history, etc.

And Brexit has shifted both, the economic And the emotive arguements. I have incrementally seen (and mentioned) more and more people, that i would have never expected, shift sides. Life long tory voters, unionist campaigners in the last referendum, are now going pro independence. And it isn't being driven by a desire to be in the single market, or to get shares of the Barnett formula. Small samples, sure. But for every one of me and my small sample, there will be a handful of others most likely.

 

[blueinsa]

"England First"?

Christ it's desperate at times this forum.

 

[Coatigan]

If someone told you 15 years ago that in 2020 Labour would be third in Scotland and comfortably behind the Tories, you’d have laughed in their face. What a sorry state of affairs.

To expand on the point yesterday, politics in Scotland (uk as a whole probably, but lets stick to the topic) have becone so binary, that imho, there is just no meaningful place for labour other than a filler self-preservation party.

The Scottish Tories have absolutwly nothing to offer as a party, and haven't for the past 5 years at least. Other than, they are not the SNP. That btw is not my claim, that is indeed the platform they openly and unashamedly stand on and promote. 'You don't like our policies, heck we don't really like our policies, but if you dont want independence, lets all take what head our office says and keep the snp out'. They have managed to sell themselves as the moat credible unionist antidote party, with labour and libdems being a no-force. They have seen that it works and gets them more votes than they could ever have hoped for before (most coming from former labour voters) and they will take that.

Ironically, that also has largely been the SNP strategy in General Elections, in reverse. I.e, they are not the Tories. Domestically, different ball game, but at Westminster, what they offer is a 'more credible' opposition to the Tories, little else.

Domestically though, the SNP have solid policies, convincing ability to deliver them, and on many items, a track record over more than a decade. BUT, the pursuit of independence comes with that, and that is an absolute.

Labour, they've got nothing seemingly. Try the unionist angle, their head office is just too weak, therefore they are weak. The tories have snatched their place as the champion of the inion. Try the policies, actually, the snp do them better. Or at least the same, but as they don't answer to Westminster, are cleaner to back.

Lib-dems, bloody hell. i really keep wishing, every bloody election, that they could pull their shit together as they actually have a lot to offer, both in policy and the unionist stance, but man are they just way too unpredictable and unreliable. Whimsical flash in the pan leaders, and the fact they just seem irrelevant down south has made their position in Scotland largely meaningless.

Greens, way more popular in Scotland than people realize. but for most left aspirations, it just seems that snp can offer a somewhat lesser version yet a more realistic and achievable one of what the greens would entice one with. They will still probably get a good chunk of the second votes though, which makes them a relevant enough player.

So, it comes down to polars, assuming independence isn't your main aspiration, go pro union and tory (and accept policies and ideals you don't necessarily agree with) or, go with policies you Do want, but with a chance of independence.

 

[Coatigan]

"England First"?

Christ it's desperate at times this forum.

I'm sorry, but have you read some of the comments on here, the flippant jibe ones?

It's poor form of me to seemingly generalize and broad brush, fair enough, and i AM sorry if you or anyone that thinks otherwise feels that is aimied at them, but there Have been a few.

I'll do my part though and in the future and be specific and avoid sweeping comments, that is fair enough.

 

[Ban-jani]

IMO the most sensible opinion you’ve offered on this thread.

From my Hibernian aspect, I’ve followed the logic of my Caledonian brethren on here and found no hypocrisy nor left wing nationalism in the logic they offer for their leanings in the choices offered to them.

Not all arguments are purely economical but, In their shoes, I would be asking how is best to limit the damage long term, from leaving the EU.
By remaining in a smaller Union or exiting it and hoping to rejoin a bigger Union again.
From an economical view it would come down to which option is more damaging and long term, but there is an emotive element to it too.

Good luck to all involved.
There are no easy decisions and no quick fixes.

I’m not surprised the Irish support Scottish independence but you see no nationalism? Come on.

Announcing it on St Andrew’s day and doing so without answering any of the questions that Saddleworth quite rightly put forward is a worry.

 

[Saddleworth2]

All the right questions to be asking and if, at the end of those questions, you think it’s worth it, then ultimately, that’s your right to that opinion/vote.

Gaining your endorsement makes it particularly special ;-)

 

[Ban-jani]

Gaining your endorsement makes it particularly special ;-)

I disagree with your general position but I don’t disagree with your right to hold that position and if you take appropriate measures, ie asking yourself what’s needed to be asked, in coming to your conclusion, then I can only praise you for doing so.

 

[Coatigan]

"England First"?

Christ it's desperate at times this forum.

You know, i'll go one further, and offer my apologies around, and take that back. It was an unnecessary dig to include in an otherwise genuine post. Bit of an accummulated sensitivity and terseness to some jibes over the pages, but probably uncalled for.

Having once similarly jumped at a throwaway dig not aimed at me (braveheart or something, cant remember specificly) i do get it.

I could just edit.it out of the comment, but i'll leave it and say my apology here instead, for clarity.

 

[blueinsa]

You know, i'll go one further, and offer my apologies around, and take that back. It was an unnecessary dig to include in an otherwise genuine post. Bit of an accummulated sensitivity and terseness to some jibes over the pages, but probably uncalled for.

Having once similarly jumped at a throwaway dig not aimed at me (braveheart or something, cant remember specificly) i do get it.

I could just edit.it out of the comment, but i'll leave it and say my apology here instead, for clarity.

No need to apologise. It wasn't aimed at you although I did read your post but the forum in general and it's attitudes towards the English. It's almost a crime to be English on here and something you should somehow apologise for and God forbid you claim to be proud about being English.

Anyway, the Scottish people through their democratic process will decide how and where their future lies and whatever they decide, as an Englishman living in Scotland I will get behind the decision even if it's not what I wanted.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I’m not surprised the Irish support Scottish independence but you see no nationalism? Come on.

Announcing it on St Andrew’s day and doing so without answering any of the questions that Saddleworth quite rightly put forward is a worry.

Read what I wrote again.
I make no mention of the SNP or whether they are a nationalist party or not. It is not being disputed by anyone in here that they are.
I refer to our fellow Scots contributors in here and I stand by what I wrote. I see no hypocrisy nor blind nationalism in any of the logic they have offered for their reactions to the dilemma they are in.

I offered no opinion on Scottish independence either, merely to wish all involved, which includes yourselves in the rest of the UK all the best, so I’ve no idea how you are not surprised by the Irish supporting their independence. It’s nothing to do with us. It’s their decision.

In light of your reaction to my simple contribution however, I would suggest again that you read it again. It was not a pop at you either. I just thought in your reply to Saddleworth that you were perhaps mellowing to the fact that there are many questions they have to ask themselves and there are many nuances influencing any vote let alone one for the SNP.
You all should have learned that at least, from the last 4 years of discussion around Brexit and the various votes since.

 

[Ban-jani]

To expand on the point yesterday, politics in Scotland (uk as a whole probably, but lets stick to the topic) have becone so binary, that imho, there is just no meaningful place for labour other than a filler self-preservation party.

The Scottish Tories have absolutwly nothing to offer as a party, and haven't for the past 5 years at least. Other than, they are not the SNP. That btw is not my claim, that is indeed the platform they openly and unashamedly stand on and promote. 'You don't like our policies, heck we don't really like our policies, but if you dont want independence, lets all take what head our office says and keep the snp out'. They have managed to sell themselves as the moat credible unionist antidote party, with labour and libdems being a no-force. They have seen that it works and gets them more votes than they could ever have hoped for before (most coming from former labour voters) and they will take that.

Ironically, that also has largely been the SNP strategy in General Elections, in reverse. I.e, they are not the Tories. Domestically, different ball game, but at Westminster, what they offer is a 'more credible' opposition to the Tories, little else.

Domestically though, the SNP have solid policies, convincing ability to deliver them, and on many items, a track record over more than a decade. BUT, the pursuit of independence comes with that, and that is an absolute.

Labour, they've got nothing seemingly. Try the unionist angle, their head office is just too weak, therefore they are weak. The tories have snatched their place as the champion of the inion. Try the policies, actually, the snp do them better. Or at least the same, but as they don't answer to Westminster, are cleaner to back.

Lib-dems, bloody hell. i really keep wishing, every bloody election, that they could pull their shit together as they actually have a lot to offer, both in policy and the unionist stance, but man are they just way too unpredictable and unreliable. Whimsical flash in the pan leaders, and the fact they just seem irrelevant down south has made their position in Scotland largely meaningless.

Greens, way more popular in Scotland than people realize. but for most left aspirations, it just seems that snp can offer a somewhat lesser version yet a more realistic and achievable one of what the greens would entice one with. They will still probably get a good chunk of the second votes though, which makes them a relevant enough player.

So, it comes down to polars, assuming independence isn't your main aspiration, go pro union and tory (and accept policies and ideals you don't necessarily agree with) or, go with policies you Do want, but with a chance of independence.

I absolutely agree with this all.

The Tory vote is just an anti SNP vote in Scotland. I can’t imagine everyone voting Tory is actually a conservative/libertarian in their ideological preference. It’s the unionist vote.

There will be unionists voting SNP because well, the SNP align with them politically speaking on day to day issues but when it comes to IndyRef2 they’ll vote no, those people could never vote Tory.

So it’s very complicated for Labour and the only way they could get Scotland back is A) scotland voting no again and the SNP collapsing due to infighting (very unlikely) and B) somehow pulling the most charismatic leader of all time out of their backsides... which is even more unlikely.

That’s no attack on Starmer, he’s a reasonable fellow but he’s not winning Scotland back. If he does he deserves knighting again.

 

[Ban-jani]

Read what I wrote again.
I make no mention of the SNP or whether they are a nationalist party or not. It is not being disputed by anyone in here that they are.
I refer to our fellow Scots contributors in here and I stand by what I wrote. I see no hypocrisy nor blind nationalism in any of the logic they have offered for their reactions to the dilemma they are in.

I offered no opinion on Scottish independence either, merely to wish all involved, which includes yourselves in the rest of the UK all the best, so I’ve no idea how you are not surprised by the Irish supporting their independence. It’s nothing to do with us. It’s their decision.

In light of your reaction to my simple contribution however, I would suggest again that you read it again. It was not a pop at you either. I just thought in your reply to Saddleworth that you were perhaps mellowing to the fact that there are many questions they have to ask themselves and there are many nuances influencing any vote let alone one for the SNP.
You all should have learned that at least, from the last 4 years of discussion around Brexit and the various votes since.

Ive got tonsillitis mate and my head is fuzzy so apologies if I’ve completely misunderstood.

I agree that the Scottish posters in here (or those supporting independence that live there that aren’t Scottish) aren’t nationalists and they’re very reasonable people.

As someone who voted remain and is opposed to Brexit I feel that you’re bang on and the Scots need to be very careful and do the opposite of Brexit, which was vote with emotion first and then work out the detail when we’d already voted to leave. They need to know the detail within an inch of its life and then vote.

I don’t begrudge them the vote at all, just in the next parliamentary term and by laying out all the detail first.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I disagree with your general position but I don’t disagree with your right to hold that position and if you take appropriate measures, ie asking yourself what’s needed to be asked, in coming to your conclusion, then I can only praise you for doing so.

i see my gentle sarcasm is a little too subtle. Easily remedied.

I’ve followed the logic of my Caledonian brethren on here and found no hypocrisy nor left wing nationalism in the logic they offer for their leanings in the choices offered to them.

I’m not surprised the Irish support Scottish independence but you see no nationalism? Come on.

I think @mancity2012_eamo was referring to the lack of hypocrisy in posters on this thread, not the entire Scottish independence movement if I interpret his post correctly.

 

[Saddleworth2]

To expand on the point yesterday, politics in Scotland (uk as a whole probably, but lets stick to the topic) have becone so binary, that imho, there is just no meaningful place for labour other than a filler self-preservation party.

The Scottish Tories have absolutwly nothing to offer as a party, and haven't for the past 5 years at least. Other than, they are not the SNP. That btw is not my claim, that is indeed the platform they openly and unashamedly stand on and promote. 'You don't like our policies, heck we don't really like our policies, but if you dont want independence, lets all take what head our office says and keep the snp out'. They have managed to sell themselves as the moat credible unionist antidote party, with labour and libdems being a no-force. They have seen that it works and gets them more votes than they could ever have hoped for before (most coming from former labour voters) and they will take that.

Ironically, that also has largely been the SNP strategy in General Elections, in reverse. I.e, they are not the Tories. Domestically, different ball game, but at Westminster, what they offer is a 'more credible' opposition to the Tories, little else.

Domestically though, the SNP have solid policies, convincing ability to deliver them, and on many items, a track record over more than a decade. BUT, the pursuit of independence comes with that, and that is an absolute.

Labour, they've got nothing seemingly. Try the unionist angle, their head office is just too weak, therefore they are weak. The tories have snatched their place as the champion of the inion. Try the policies, actually, the snp do them better. Or at least the same, but as they don't answer to Westminster, are cleaner to back.

Lib-dems, bloody hell. i really keep wishing, every bloody election, that they could pull their shit together as they actually have a lot to offer, both in policy and the unionist stance, but man are they just way too unpredictable and unreliable. Whimsical flash in the pan leaders, and the fact they just seem irrelevant down south has made their position in Scotland largely meaningless.

Greens, way more popular in Scotland than people realize. but for most left aspirations, it just seems that snp can offer a somewhat lesser version yet a more realistic and achievable one of what the greens would entice one with. They will still probably get a good chunk of the second votes though, which makes them a relevant enough player.

So, it comes down to polars, assuming independence isn't your main aspiration, go pro union and tory (and accept policies and ideals you don't necessarily agree with) or, go with policies you Do want, but with a chance of independence.

excellent post mate. I wonder what it would take to flip Scottish Labour or the Lib Dems to supporting independence. The Greens already have of course. Will they continue to canvas against it right up to the point where a indy ref 2 gives a decisive answer or will they look at the way the wind is blowing and flip before. If they did it would make life a little easier in a post independence Scotland. If they didn't they would be irrelevant for at least a decade. It will be interesting to see their position following the Scottish elections next year.

 

[blueinsa]

excellent post mate. I wonder what it would take to flip Scottish Labour or the Lib Dems to supporting independence. The Greens already have of course. Will they continue to canvas against it right up to the point where a indy ref 2 gives a decisive answer or will they look at the way the wind is blowing and flip before. If they did it would make life a little easier in a post independence Scotland. If they didn't they would be irrelevant for at least a decade. It will be interesting to see their position following the Scottish elections next year.

A successful brexit could show Scotland that it's perfectly fine to leave a trading and political union. The answers to many brexit questions will also answer many re Scottish Independence.

 

[Coatigan]

I absolutely agree with this all.

The Tory vote is just an anti SNP vote in Scotland. I can’t imagine everyone voting Tory is actually a conservative/libertarian in their ideological preference. It’s the unionist vote.

There will be unionists voting SNP because well, the SNP align with them politically speaking on day to day issues but when it comes to IndyRef2 they’ll vote no, those people could never vote Tory.

So it’s very complicated for Labour and the only way they could get Scotland back is A) scotland voting no again and the SNP collapsing due to infighting (very unlikely) and B) somehow pulling the most charismatic leader of all time out of their backsides... which is even more unlikely.

That’s no attack on Starmer, he’s a reasonable fellow but he’s not winning Scotland back. If he does he deserves knighting again.

The irony is, both positions are unsustainable. The scot tories can't be a protest vote forever, in the immediate aftermath of the referendum and against calls for another one, sure. but you cant keep voting tory for decades to avoid the risk of a referendum.

Likewise, the SNP can't keep pursuing independence forever, theyl either get it one day or it will fail. If they get it, changes everything, if they fail, then as a party they have to either abandon or shelve it to keep delivering policies and existing. Which i kinda thought would happen in 2015. But then, brexit happened.

 

[Saddleworth2]

A successful brexit could show Scotland that it's perfectly fine to leave a trading and political union. The answers to many brexit questions will also answer many re Scottish Independence.

Successful or shitshow, whatever outcome you would like to think that lessons will be learned. That includes every aspect starting with the format of indyref 2, both cases, pro and agin independence, the manner of the campaign, the execution of the result. So many lessons to learn.

 

[Coatigan]

excellent post mate. I wonder what it would take to flip Scottish Labour or the Lib Dems to supporting independence. The Greens already have of course. Will they continue to canvas against it right up to the point where a indy ref 2 gives a decisive answer or will they look at the way the wind is blowing and flip before. If they did it would make life a little easier in a post independence Scotland. If they didn't they would be irrelevant for at least a decade. It will be interesting to see their position following the Scottish elections next year.

There have been noises from both, in the run-up to 2014, and since. Labour in particilular lately, although it was seen/spun as a desperate survival tactic. They have and will always side with the broader party, and i am not sure if they can really exist without them. But also, not sure it is in any way meaningful to exist on the basis they are extension parties either. If they had a 'neutral' stance where they could focus on the policies and leave the question of independence to the voters based on questions/answers, they might stand a chance. But think of the cajones that would take. Damned if you do damned if you don't for them in current binary times, however they approach it. Im sure they do genuinely beleive in unionism as well. As i'm sure, there are parts of both that actually are open to independence.

 

[Shadz69]

I wonder if a celtic trade and customs union might be possible?
I think it was mooted in the past.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I wonder if a celtic trade and customs union might be possible?
I think it was mooted in the past.

What would that consist of or what would it’s purpose be?
Genuine question. If you are talking of all Ireland and Scotland, why? And what purpose outside of the EU?
If all were within the EU, then why, again?