Another new Brexit thread

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Mëtal Bikër said:
Just as the public had no influence over the negotiations and how they've been concluded since January 2020. The public tasked the next Government to "get a deal", they've (seemingly) failed.

"It's all the publics fault!"
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And I do hold them to account for not realising either the fallacy of the “oven ready” deal presented at the time or that a deal compatible with their perceived red lines was never going to happen.

We knew brexit was coming and consciously put Johnson in charge of it. As much as as a consequence, we put him in charge of everything else you mention, only some of those were consciously done and absolutely, I’d blame the voters as well as the government for those things. That’s democracy, we don’t cede all accountability, otherwise votes don’t mean anything.
 
meltonblue said:
And I do hold them to account for not realising either the fallacy of the “oven ready” deal presented at the time or that a deal compatible with their perceived red lines was never going to happen.

We knew brexit was coming and consciously put Johnson in charge of it. As much as as a consequence, we put him in charge of everything else you mention, only some of those were consciously done and absolutely, I’d blame the voters as well as the government for those things.
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Isn't hindsight wonderful.

I'm sure those of us who voted in the referendum should have expected that elected Parliamentarians who vowed to honour the wishes of the public based on the result would spend the following 3 years attempting to derail the situation in their own favour, that Cameron who called the referendum would walk away when his opinion lost, that May would create so many rods for the UK's back in her attempts to get a deal and that the traditionally anti-EU Labour Party would champion the opinions of the socialites over the socialists in regards to EU membership.

Damn us all for not having clairvoyance! Burn them at the stake!
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Just as the public had no influence over the negotiations and how they've been concluded since January 2020. The public tasked the next Government to "get a deal", they've (seemingly) failed.

"It's all the publics fault!"
Click to expand...
It's arguably the 'public's' fault (or at least a sizeable number of them) for assuming that the Government would get a (decent) deal.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
It's arguably the 'public's' fault (or at least a sizeable number of them) for assuming that the Government would get a (decent) deal.
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It really isn't.
The choices were we'll try and get a deal, we'll try and get a deal then argue against adopting it, and we'll just remain in the EU.

One won out over the other choices as a way of ending the saga. If you want to be one of those that seeks to end the animosity and divisions, I fail to see how 'blaming the public' goes towards healing those divisions especially since such blame is neither warrented or justified.
 
meltonblue said:
Ultimately, it’s a trade deal, they’re not going to sign up to one where the opposite party can then change their regulations without recompense.

I can’t think of a single trade deal, even the one we’ve signed recently with Japan, that doesn’t include level playing field or state aid stipulations.
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I don’t think there are many that have a clause in that the eu are proposing on the uk

As I understand it ‘dynamic alignment’ is EU insists that if it brings in new rules and we don’t follow suit, then it has right unilaterally to impose tariffs, without recourse to independent arbitration.

the uk would not be permitted to have retaliatory tariffs to protect its position.

equally , if the uk proposes new rules there is no obligation on the eu to follow suit.

that does not sound like commonality and trading partners but control by the eu.

I don’t think boris could agree to that, but he is a thick twat and he likes to please whoever he is talking to so he may do .
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Isn't hindsight wonderful.

I'm sure those of us who voted in the referendum should have expected that elected Parliamentarians who vowed to honour the wishes of the public based on the result would spend the following 3 years attempting to derail the situation in their own favour, that Cameron who called the referendum would walk away when his opinion lost, that May would create so many rods for the UK's back in her attempts to get a deal and that the traditionally anti-EU Labour Party would champion the opinions of the socialites over the socialists in regards to EU membership.

Damn us all for not having clairvoyance! Burn them at the stake!
Click to expand...

To be fair though, you hardly needed to be clairvoyant to realise a lot of the potential consequences. I absolutely factored that in to my decision as I was fairly split at the time, I saw benefits in both. In the end, I saw it as I couldn’t vote for something when I didn’t know what it was and both of the main parties were split just within themselves so there was clearly going to be uncertainty. I ended up being more split on whether to vote at all.

The Labour Party hasn’t been anti EU for over a generation, only factions within it. You knew what they’d champion given they said it before the referendum, also that there would still be divisions within it.
 
meltonblue said:
To be fair though, you hardly needed to be clairvoyant to realise a lot of the potential consequences. I absolutely factored that in to my decision as I was fairly split at the time, I saw benefits in both. In the end, I saw it as I couldn’t vote for something when I didn’t know what it was and both of the main parties were split just within themselves so there was clearly going to be uncertainty. I ended up being more split on whether to vote at all.

The Labour Party hasn’t been anti EU for over a generation, only factions within it. You knew what they’d champion given they said it before the referendum, also that there would still be divisions within it.
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Then you are equally as 'guilty'. Nobody knew what the deal would be, but the incentive was to get one. Would you be saying all this had a deal agreement had been reached? Even the EU have stated the deal was 98% concluded, so it's not like they didn't try. But the public is to blame for the politicians on both sides failing to agree on the final details? Give over.

My decision to vote Green over Labour was based more on Labour's disgraceful handling of their antisemitism issues. I was not about to give my support to allow such a Government in power.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Just as the public had no influence over the negotiations and how they've been concluded since January 2020. The public tasked the next Government to "get a deal", they've (seemingly) failed.

"It's all the publics fault!"
Click to expand...

just over half the publics fault...

disclaimer : well of those who voted in the UK referendum and not the independent countries within the uk. different countries within the uk may have had different outcomes .
 
And I’ve never said or agree with the sentiment “it’s all the publics fault”, just that people are not absolved of all blame, that’s not how I perceive democracy at all. We decide who we empower.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Then you are equally as 'guilty'. My decision to vote Green over Labour was based more on Labour's disgraceful handling of their antisemitism issues. I was not about to give my support to allow such a Government in power.
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Equally as guilty of what?

Ive never voted for Labour.
 
kevin horlocks wand said:
I don’t think there are many that have a clause in that the eu are proposing on the uk

As I understand it ‘dynamic alignment’ is EU insists that if it brings in new rules and we don’t follow suit, then it has right unilaterally to impose tariffs, without recourse to independent arbitration.

the uk would not be permitted to have retaliatory tariffs to protect its position.

equally , if the uk proposes new rules there is no obligation on the eu to follow suit.

that does not sound like commonality and trading partners but control by the eu.

I don’t think boris could agree to that, but he is a thick twat and he likes to please whoever he is talking to so he may do .
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EU protects it's members trade = good

UK protects it's members trade = bad

Appears to be the opinion amongst our sage contributors.
 
Why can't the PM just say no deal rather than Australian type deal. It's doing my box in. Even moreso as he's just gone full Rule Brittania after saying it. "The UK will come out stronger...blah...blah..."
 
kevin horlocks wand said:
just over half the publics fault...

disclaimer : well of those who voted in the UK referendum and not the independent countries within the uk. different countries within the uk may have had different outcomes .
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It's actually only really the fault of about 1.2m of the public. I'm among the 16m leave voters who are not to blame as our votes were cancelled out by remain ones.
 
mat said:
Why can't the PM just say no deal rather than Australian type deal. It's doing my box in. Even moreso as he's just gone full Rule Brittania after saying it. "The UK will come out stronger...blah...blah..."
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You'd prefer him to go all Denethor?

"All hope is lost! Flee, flee for your lives!"
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Isn't hindsight wonderful.

I'm sure those of us who voted in the referendum should have expected that elected Parliamentarians who vowed to honour the wishes of the public based on the result would spend the following 3 years attempting to derail the situation in their own favour, that Cameron who called the referendum would walk away when his opinion lost, that May would create so many rods for the UK's back in her attempts to get a deal and that the traditionally anti-EU Labour Party would champion the opinions of the socialites over the socialists in regards to EU membership.

Damn us all for not having clairvoyance! Burn them at the stake!
Click to expand...
Nobody needed clairvoyance , it was always going to be a shit show and undeliverable, millions of voters knew .
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
It's actually only really the fault of about 1.2m of the public. I'm among the 16m leave voters who are not to blame as our votes were cancelled out by remain ones.
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I'm definitely using that when the mob descends on my doorstep with loofahs and gluten free sandwiches from Pret.
 
It is funny to observe people who cry outrage whenever the UK government hands out a dodgy contract to private companies without tender and misuse the tax payers money.

But the same people seem to be fine with the EU accepting revenue from the UK who happen to be the 2nd biggest contributor within the EU (funded by the taxpayer) whilst being one of the lowest recipients of the budget. We might receive a rebate/funding which could be maybe half of what we contributed in the form of development grants etc.
 
carlosthejackal said:
Nobody needed clairvoyance , it was always going to be a shit show and undeliverable, millions of voters knew .
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Did they. Wonder why the majority didn't. Is there some soothesayer you're all privy to that the rest of us weren't that said "only a 98% trade deal will be agreed in a year from now!".
 
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