Another new Brexit thread

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mcfc1632 said:
Catching up I have seen a number of posts asking about benefits of Brexit

The posters are it seems only able to reflect on relatively small inconveniences

None of these posters seem willing to address the big issues that utterly swamp the trivial issues they mention.

In a recent excellent post @Rascal mentioned the events in Greece:

".......In January 2015, the radical left party Syriza was elected, with its leader Alexis Tsipras declaring “Greece is leaving behind destructive austerity.” Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, responded that “To suggest that everything is going to change because there's a new government in Athens is to mistake dreams for reality… There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties.”
The economic warfare unleashed on Greece by the Troika witnessed living standards slashed, services privatised and workers' rights dismantled as part of what the Jubilee Debt Campaign has called “The Never-Ending Austerity Story”. That is the EU that exists, it is neo-liberal to its core and it is anti democrat as Juncker declares......"

Yet no posters came back on that - there are many benefits from being free to act to support UK businesses directly and free from the controls of EU, as just one example - the management of Post-Covid recovery will be much more robust if we are able to invest in UK priorities without the constraints EU membership enforce

Some days ago, a few of us were discussing the impact of the EU' policies towards debt mutualisation and the implications that would have for the UK, this post by @Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese Swiss Cheese as an example:


yet only one Remain poster made even an attempt to consider that major issue. An issues so large the UK being (increasingly) free of the risk from would be benefit enough of itself to swamp all the trivial inconveniences

There must be a reason why the vast majority of Remainers avoid such fundamental flaws in the EU construct and the limitations it places on the UK and the major risks it locks the UK into

My own summary is that Remainers only seem willing to limit their assessments to the convenient and comfortable experiences of the recent past - whereas Leavers are looking to the future and the icebergs that need to be avoided
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What you haven’t grasped or are pretending not to realise is that the Greece crisis was totally related to their membership of the Eurozone. Their bailout was funded from the Eurozone and we were barely involved due to the fact that we were not and never likely to be part of the Eurozone. In the last few pages the two “best” economic reasons you leavers can come up with for Brexit were Target 2 and the Greek crisis, neither of which had any relevance to us because, and it appears to be difficult for you to understand, we’re not in the Eurozone.

That’s not to say any future problems with the Euro wouldn’t cause collateral damage - of course it would - but that’s true whether we’re in or out of the EU.

The only bailout we’ve participated in as donors was to help Ireland. That was in our own interest and it’s been fully paid back with interest. Even then most of the funding we committed to making available wasn’t drawn upon.
 
west didsblue said:
What you haven’t grasped or are pretending not to realise is that the Greece crisis was totally related to their membership of the Eurozone. Their bailout was funded from the Eurozone and we were barely involved due to the fact that we were not and never likely to be part of the Eurozone. In the last few pages the two “best” economic reasons you leavers can come up with for Brexit were Target 2 and the Greek crisis, neither of which had any relevance to us because, and it appears to be difficult for you to understand, we’re not in the Eurozone.

That’s not to say any future problems with the Euro wouldn’t cause collateral damage - of course it would - but that’s true whether we’re in or out of the EU.

The only bailout we’ve participated in as donors was to help Ireland. That was in our own interest and it’s been fully paid back with interest. Even then most of the funding we committed to making available wasn’t drawn upon.
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The UK cannot make loans (or bailouts) to individual countries only to the Central Bank
 
Len Rum said:
Micky B - the final hours, all about the fish.
Has it really come down to the fish??
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Basically - every thing they hoped to get in the cake + eat cake ideal they had set out for has been shut down. Fish is the only real tangible win in a no deal (and its more like a lose lose than a win, but if the Eu lose then that is a win for a brexiteer).

So UK Gov are desperatley trying to get something on fish as everything else is in line with a stright forward hard brexit - i.e. to get zero tariffs we have to allign to EU rules. The allignment will have optionality to break away but you also break away from zero tarifs. In fact its not that different from being a member of the EU were we always had the option to leave and break away at any point.

As predictable from day 1 - its a shit deal and you are far better of being a member. That is the reality - fish gives them something to divert the conversation on to when theat reality is discussed going forward. If they dont get something on fish they can't say 'ah but fish'.
 
Fun time for queue watchers...Calais hitting 50km, Dover, Holyhead et al also rammed yesterday as everyone tries to move shit and stockpile before 1st Jan. Getting stuff into NI a particular focus.

Amazed that everyone is trying to beat the 1st Jan deadline. Surely, waiting to deliver on ‘Australian terms’ makes more sense. #prospermightily
 
I thought we'd already agreed to kick the fish can down the road.

If we can call it a sovereign can, can we settle? I mean, are we really going to ruin our own shellfish export businesses to stop Dutch boats catching herring that we neither catch nor eat? For a bit of flag waving?
 
west didsblue said:
What you haven’t grasped or are pretending not to realise is that the Greece crisis was totally related to their membership of the Eurozone. Their bailout was funded from the Eurozone and we were barely involved due to the fact that we were not and never likely to be part of the Eurozone. In the last few pages the two “best” economic reasons you leavers can come up with for Brexit were Target 2 and the Greek crisis, neither of which had any relevance to us because, and it appears to be difficult for you to understand, we’re not in the Eurozone.

That’s not to say any future problems with the Euro wouldn’t cause collateral damage - of course it would - but that’s true whether we’re in or out of the EU.

The only bailout we’ve participated in as donors was to help Ireland. That was in our own interest and it’s been fully paid back with interest. Even then most of the funding we committed to making available wasn’t drawn upon.
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Not sure about that. The Greek crisis was as much to do with their own profligacy than being in the Euro.
 
Gaudion M said:
Basically - every thing they hoped to get in the cake + eat cake ideal they had set out for has been shut down. Fish is the only real tangible win in a no deal (and its more like a lose lose than a win, but if the Eu lose then that is a win for a brexiteer).

So UK Gov are desperatley trying to get something on fish as everything else is in line with a stright forward hard brexit - i.e. to get zero tariffs we have to allign to EU rules. The allignment will have optionality to break away but you also break away from zero tarifs. In fact its not that different from being a member of the EU were we always had the option to leave and break away at any point.

As predictable from day 1 - its a shit deal and you are far better of being a member. That is the reality - fish gives them something to divert the conversation on to when theat reality is discussed going forward. If they dont get something on fish they can't say 'ah but fish'.
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Robbie Williams nearly died from mercury poisoning after eating ........a fish diet. Fact.

Fish needs to be off the menu.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
The EU was not the reason for the Greek economic crisis though was it? They were hardly innocent victims in what happened. Those living standard slashes were things like cutting back on pensions that had men retiring at 55 and women at 50. Guaranteed annual pay rises, guaranteed holiday bonus wages, guaranteed christmas bonus wages. Stuff that we all enjoy.
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Stuff that the Neo-Liberals hate.

They cant abide that a person may retire when he should be out earning them a profit. They hate pay rises as its less profit, they despise holidays as workers should be working to make them profit, they hate giving bonuses out to anybody but themselves. Stuff that all is done to buy your amenability and create the need for them to justify their existence. They don't "give" these things out of a sense of duty to the worker, they do it to create slaves to the corporate entity.

Don't fall for there divisive rhetoric, you have more in common with that Greek worker than you have with any neo liberal exploiter.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Not sure about that. The Greek crisis was as much to do with their own profligacy than being in the Euro.
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Fully agree.
However, if they still had their own currency they would have had to address their profligacy a lot sooner when the Drachma would have lost value. Being in the Euro created the environment for their unsustainable policies.

The main point though is it barely affected us because we were outside the Eurozone.
 
Rascal said:
Stuff that the Neo-Liberals hate.

They cant abide that a person may retire when he should be out earning them a profit. They hate pay rises as its less profit, they despise holidays as workers should be working to make them profit, they hate giving bonuses out to anybody but themselves. Stuff that all is done to buy your amenability and create the need for them to justify their existence. They don't "give" these things out of a sense of duty to the worker, they do it to create slaves to the corporate entity.

Don't fall for there divisive rhetoric, you have more in common with that Greek worker than you have with any neo liberal exploiter.
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Excuse me but that is shite. I am all in favour of those things if your economy can afford them. their spending on pensions was way, way above anything else in Europe. Greece debt went through the roof because of that spending. Then came the financial crisis. Whatever happened next, be they in or out of the EU would have been painful for decades.
 
west didsblue said:
Fully agree.
However, if they still had their own currency they would have had to address their profligacy a lot sooner when the Drachma would have lost value. Being in the Euro created the environment for their unsustainable policies.

The main point though is it barely affected us because we were outside the Eurozone.
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Yeah, there is truth in that + the Euro had to be supported. People (not you) do conveniently forget Greece role in its own downfall though and seek to put everything on the evil empire.
 
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MessiFC said:
Recently I have found this Brexit topic on the forum and as a non-British (unfortunately) person I would be delighted to know the answer to my question, you all know the situation in UK better than me :P

I am the EU citizen and I would like to work (pubs, cleaning etc.) in the UK for a short period of time next year (summer vacation, 2-3 months) of course if covid stops but that seems impossible... anyway: is it still possible for EU citizen to work in the UK for a short period of time - few months? Or do I have to be an engineer or a surgeon to have a right to work here as a foreigner? I hope you understand what I mean.
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Its still unclear unfortunately...i think there is / was a pilot focussed on agriculture workers to allow employers to take EU workers in the same way, until June 2021........but from the little ive read, the info is heavily focussed on recruiting EU staff into PERMANENT jobs....and there may be a need for employers to provide sponsorship....

www.gov.uk

Visas and immigration - GOV.UK

Apply to visit, work, study, settle or seek asylum in the UK
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

That link has some info, although not really specific to your question......maybe further links on the page will help?
 
BobKowalski said:
Fun time for queue watchers...Calais hitting 50km, Dover, Holyhead et al also rammed yesterday as everyone tries to move shit and stockpile before 1st Jan. Getting stuff into NI a particular focus.
Amazed that everyone is trying to beat the 1st Jan deadline. Surely, waiting to deliver on ‘Australian terms’ makes more sense. #prospermightily
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#prosperbigly sounds a bit classier.
 
Vic said:
I thought we'd already agreed to kick the fish can down the road.

If we can call it a sovereign can, can we settle? I mean, are we really going to ruin our own shellfish export businesses to stop Dutch boats catching herring that we neither catch nor eat? For a bit of flag waving?
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JRM, Gove and chief clown Johnson see a bit of flag waving as a great achievement. No substance, you just have to wave the flag.
 
journolud said:
I understand that you have felt offended by some of my interactions with you in the past and for that I apologise. It's far from a one way street on this thread , it has got heated on both sides often enough and I'll own my part in this. I can't help feeling though that you are using this as a bit of a smokescreen to avoid answering the questions.

You have consistently given your reasons for supporting Brexit and I understand them even if I don't agree with them. However, given that main aim of yours will be secured are you willing to say whether you think Brexit will materially improve your working conditions/ wages/ job security or worsen them or not have any impact at all.

Similarly, although you're not the only Brexiteer to do this, (with the possible exception of @mcfc1632 who again consistently makes the case for short term pain for long term gain), instead of relying on banter between yourselves to rubbish the questions, given the number of immediate inconveniences that Brexit will bring about, could you, or anyone, point to some of the quick wins from a material point of view (ie not freedom from the overarching control of the EU which is pretty abstract) in our day to day lives.
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It genuinely isn't. I have no interest sharing anything with you because I know, as you've already proven, will misunderstand my position despite me explaining it.

You've got a short memory.
 
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