Political relations between UK-EU

[Ban-jani]

But they more than pay for the infrastructure need or they would if the government was competent enough to set the correct tax spend and infrastructure plans

I don’t know what mass immigration means when does immigration become mass we certainly never had open borders as some are claiming

As for changing culture what does that mean ? Seems it ends up being code for not liking other religions (at best this is wrapped up in worries about security or democracy which is just false) at worst it’s just full blown bigotry / not liking brown people or foreign languages

If you ask people specifics on other cultures they love them be it food art etc

Ahh, I am absolutely delighted to see you’ve gone down the racism and bigotry route so soon into our discussion. Didn’t think it would be long until someone pulled that card out.

Did you miss the part where the UK’s new immigration policy, which I support, no longer makes it easier for people coming from predominantly white Christian countries in Europe, than those coming from elsewhere, and instead is totally blind to creed and colour, as long as you’re qualified in areas we need?

I have given you figures and the figures of 100,000’s of net people adding to our population each year is, as I’ve repeated, unsustainable.


The Labour Party apologised for their policy under Blair, which was to radically change the country via migration and was done so as government policy. Straw and Blair banned the word immigration from cabinet meetings and made it possible for people to claim refugee status, that were not refugees.

It was a systematic and encouraged policy to change society and they never uttered a word to the British people on whether they wanted it.

You need to read the book “Broken Vows” by Tom Bower. It was a best seller and described as more comprehensive than the Chilcot Inquiry.

Straw has apologised following the release of the book.

Regarding the government, it won’t take you long to find posts on this forum of me hammering the Tories for something or calling them utterly incompetent.

I am not defending their record but I am saying that if and when, after Covid, they finally do spend on infrastructure and housing, it would be ridiculous to add to the pressure by allowing free movement.

Culture wise it’s simple. The exact same reason I felt deep sadness when I ended up in Benidorm on a stage do, seeing what we’ve done there, I wouldn’t want the same to happen here. One local there, in Benidorm, said to me that whilst locals are glad there’s money coming in through tourism, it’s sad how their town has effectively turned into “Blackpool in the sun”, he genuinely said that yes. This is my point on the economics not always equaling quality of life, he’d have preferred it to stay Spanish.

Immigrants should be integrated and welcomed and whilst they should retain many aspects of their own culture, allowing whole towns and areas to house them at a short, sharp rate, creates tension and fails to integrate them.

I will reiterate before I get more false accusations by those incapable of arguing in another way, I am pro immigration. Just not freedom of movement.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Yeh its drastically changed. Esp those places u have mentioned.

Even so with Rotterdam. The last time I came to visit this place was back in 2009, lets just say it wasn't a pretty place. Now the crowd seems to be more different, more working folks, and the low income families so to speak have forced to move more south of the bridge (cheaper hoods). However, local govt are investing heavily to improve certain neighbourhoods and have done a fab job.

Anyhow that aside, house prices are at its peak. The housing market is crazy. And this is down to migration of people coming from all corners of EU. Plenty spanish, italians, brits, even the latin folks have shifted to NL. And with that, there is a low supply of properties but huge demand. Prices have rocketed for this reason. And to be honest, the growing population is a concern for some. Its increasing at a rapid pace, more towns and cities are overcrowded than before. Banks are handing out mortgages easily, even at 100% (no deposit required). Madness.

My concern, with NEXIT, what will it mean the Euro currency? Going back to Guilders might bring the value of properties down? What will it mean for the country in terms of trading seeing NL has been considered a trading country for years. Dutch banks survive? Prices of products? Basically the same concerns when Brexit came about, but with more severe consequences i think seeing that we still use the Euro currency.

Having spoken to one or two locals, none want it out of fear for the above but at the same time are fearing the worse now that UK has left.

so what you describe is the same unfounded fears fed into the local populace so the narrative is the problems are down to immigration? That is however actually movement within the Schengen zone. So I am not sure what the issue is in that the system is working in the manner it is allowed to - perhaps the problem is that one which we face in the uk- supply not keeping up with demand? Thats not an EU problem thats the local government not coping with what they face surely? Furthermore the mistake that was made here in the UK is being repeated in your post - the assumption is that people who have moved to another Schengen country are there to stay - we were not in that agreement and people have come and gone. Immigration is a huge con perpetrated on the insecure and prejudiced I am afraid - nomads are nomads and won't necessarily stay put but its helped for decades the rabble rousers to scare people who are easily scared.....if demand for houses from people who are still entitled to make the demand then supply has to be increased - that is fuck all to do with the EU

 

[Vic]

A brain drain, an increase in pressure on infrastructure and public services, housing crisis, a short sharp change in culture that not a human on the planet wants to happen in their society and environmental issues...are what you could as my problems with FoM as policy.

Ive never subscribed to the wages argument, although I now know you’re not accusing me of that.

I am in favour of immigration though, in a controlled and selected manner (selected meaning types of skills coming into the country).

That's a bold claim that no-one on the planet wants a short sharp change in the culture of their society. As you hate the Chinese Commnist Party I assume that means all the Chinese are content with their culture. Personally, I'd be more than happy to have a short sharp change in British culture to be more tolerant of other cultures.

 

[mcfc1632]

Yeh its drastically changed. Esp those places u have mentioned.

Even so with Rotterdam. The last time I came to visit this place was back in 2009, lets just say it wasn't a pretty place. Now the crowd seems to be more different, more working folks, and the low income families so to speak have forced to move more south of the bridge (cheaper hoods). However, local govt are investing heavily to improve certain neighbourhoods and have done a fab job.

Anyhow that aside, house prices are at its peak. The housing market is crazy. And this is down to migration of people coming from all corners of EU. Plenty spanish, italians, brits, even the latin folks have shifted to NL. And with that, there is a low supply of properties but huge demand. Prices have rocketed for this reason. And to be honest, the growing population is a concern for some. Its increasing at a rapid pace, more towns and cities are overcrowded than before. Banks are handing out mortgages easily, even at 100% (no deposit required). Madness.

My concern, with NEXIT, what will it mean the Euro currency? Going back to Guilders might bring the value of properties down? What will it mean for the country in terms of trading seeing NL has been considered a trading country for years. Dutch banks survive? Prices of products? Basically the same concerns when Brexit came about, but with more severe consequences i think seeing that we still use the Euro currency.

Having spoken to one or two locals, none want it out of fear for the above but at the same time are fearing the worse now that UK has left.

I can really understand the concerns - as I mentioned, Holland was one of the countries I had in mind when worrying about the future of the EU.

I consider Holland to be in a very difficult position - it has been a net contributor for a long time - and is one of the countries that make up what is referred to as the 'Frugal Four' - meaning that they are themselves very efficient and indeed a 'model' for the EU - but they are part of the subsidising of other countries that are not as efficient - and never will be

How can Holland afford that? and it is only going to get worse IMO. The EU plans to mutualise the debts of the 27 - meaning that Holland will have to stump up a lot as their share and they intend to expand further - meaning that Holland's contributions will need to increase - and their share will need to increase still further when the shortfall of the loss of UK contributions is addressed.

I really feel for Holland - and all my friends there. I can see what benefits some countries such as Germany and France get from the EU and I can see what others that are recipients of investment get from the EU - but Holland is in neither group and I think that the country will be an increasing 'loser'

I am a Leave supporter, but I take no pleasure in understanding that the situation is going to be very fertile breeding ground for anti-EU sentiment and the rise of radical groups

I wish you well - but share your concerns

 

[WRicko]

Well your first paragraph is taking the point to the extreme, nobody is going to tell her she’s not welcome because her village needs her, that’s never going to happen and the UK government isn’t thinking about that in its Brexit meetings.

It is, however, a legitimate concern across the EU that needs addressing and I know that point on Stewart Lee was insinuating I don’t really care about Bulgaria and the point is that I don’t want them here.

I have personally benefited greatly because of my Bulgarian colleague, her contribution to our team leads to my commission too, I couldn’t be any more grateful for having her and she’s aware of that. I am fully behind giving people the chance to come and work here but we need to control it, as you have agreed and the EU needs to consider this if it’s going to improve.

Our new immigration system is going to improve on what we had with the EU’s, that is my only point I’ve made for the last 24 hrs.

My overall opinion on the EU is that the benefits still outweigh this particular negative and that’s why I wanted to remain. The whole discussion started because one or two posters, such as our dear Bob, are proponents of completely open borders globally, and want that for Britain moving forward.

Who specifically said they wanted open borders

We never had open borders

How do we know that the immigration system will improve ?

Seems unlikely given the governments lack of competence

Seems unlikely given that new trade deals will require a lot of immigration perhaps not too much economically but too much in the minds of the people who voted leave

Alternately Brexit forces will drive immigration down to too lower level Look at the shortages we have in the NHS etc we won’t fix this for decades without immigration at high levels

Also the current government could have used EU law to control EU law and chose not to and then chose not even after it became more widely known because it would have shown there incompetence

 

[west didsblue]

For those worrying about (or secretly hoping for) NEXIT, a quick search of the web finds recent surveys showing 91% in favour of EU membership and 67% with a generally favourable opinion of it. I don’t think the Netherlands is going to be the first country to want out following our departure. In fact, since our Brexit vote opinion of the EU has become more favourable in almost every country. The country with the lowest percentage in favour of membership is Italy at 72% so it might be some time before some of the Brexit enthusiasts get to enjoy their popcorn.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

I am in favour of immigration though, in a controlled and selected manner (selected meaning types of skills coming into the country).

The problem that can easily occur with something like this if you don't implement it properly is that you can end up giving a large amount of control to an employer. In a lot of countries a visa is linked to a particular job, which means that your employer doesn't only have control over your job, but also your entire future in the country. That sort of situation is ripe for abuse. But then go the other way and give people a visa for a particular sector, and employers will be reluctant to go through the effort and expense of sponsoring someone knowing that they can just jump ship to another employer as soon as they get into the country.

 

[Rascal]

Serious question for you. I know you're profoundly anti-EU and were against our membership. Did that always apply? Were you ok with it being just a trading bloc prior to the various treaties that furthered political integration or was it always something you were opposed to?

No it didnt, I actually wanted further integration and a fully federal state with single political parties that operated across the Union. An elected President and single constitution. Nobody had that vision though and the status quo was unacceptable as it is just a neo-liberal club that benefits those with wealth. A fully federated EU could have led to a fully federated Socialist state, with the likes of Labour, Portugals Bloc Esquerida and other Leftist EU parties forming one mass party to campaign for a Socialist state. When remain became the supporters of status quo i came to the conclusion I cant support that and initially i was unsure so abstained in the actual vote. I do consider myself fairly well educated but the complexity of the debate was overwhelming for me, for others it was much simple such as they wanted to end all immigration, or they wanted to carry on travelling to their holiday home in the Languedoc without a problem. The more I looked into it the more I came to realise that if i wanted a Socialist state then leaving was the only way that could be achieved. It wasn't easy though because i do still believe the EU is a source for good and i hated that i would be on the same side, albeit for different reasons as the likes of that horrible **** Farage.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Which brings me back to my original question. What is our vision? What does the UK want to do? What does it want to be?

Well, unfortunately for you mate, it definitely doesn't want to do, or be, what you want. But some of us are quite happy with it.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I thought that this was going to be a 'forwards looking' thread - or at least that seemed to be what the OP suggested

We are getting dragged back by a couple of posters to talk about the narrow issues that reflect their comfort zone - we should be discussing the future political relations between the UK and the EU

Some just cannot let go of their pet/failed ideals

Yeah, I'm just flicking through this and we're still hearing the same tired
arguments about Brexit that never chimed with the electorate before the vote, and now after it. Then again, it's a thread about EU/UK relations, which
have not yet developed as we've only just started, so we wait and see I suppose. But if it remains a whinge fest about why we shouldn't have done this, that and the other, then it's pointless imo.

 

[Vic]

No it didnt, I actually wanted further integration and a fully federal state with single political parties that operated across the Union. An elected President and single constitution. Nobody had that vision though and the status quo was unacceptable as it is just a neo-liberal club that benefits those with wealth. A fully federated EU could have led to a fully federated Socialist state, with the likes of Labour, Portugals Bloc Esquerida and other Leftist EU parties forming one mass party to campaign for a Socialist state. When remain became the supporters of status quo i came to the conclusion I cant support that and initially i was unsure so abstained in the actual vote. I do consider myself fairly well educated but the complexity of the debate was overwhelming for me, for others it was much simple such as they wanted to end all immigration, or they wanted to carry on travelling to their holiday home in the Languedoc without a problem. The more I looked into it the more I came to realise that if i wanted a Socialist state then leaving was the only way that could be achieved. It wasn't easy though because i do still believe the EU is a source for good and i hated that i would be on the same side, albeit for different reasons as the likes of that horrible **** Farage.

All you had to do was get all the true socialists in the EU to vote for socialist MEPs. With PR you would then have had a socialist European Parliament.

You also get socialists in each member state to elect socialist governments to send socialists to the European Council and Council of ministers and appoint socialist Commissioners.

The only flaw in this procedure is that you don't have enough socialists. Maybe that isn't a problem for revolutionary socialists, but it is for socialists who support "leftist parties" that can actually get elected.

I enjoy your political education lectures, but a degree of realism about your "vision" would not go amiss. The idea that leaving the EU is going to hasten a pan-European socialist state (or a socialist England) seems a recipe for being disappointed. Even with oppressed masses (and there aren't that many people in Europe now who really understand how oppressed they are) revolution was a hard sell. Lenin might have been against, but frankly the "miserable reforms" of class collaboration (i.e. get people of all classes to vote for a leftist party) is the sum of my current political ambitions.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

It’s been rejected by people who are putting up strawmen or who believe the strawmen

Open boarders where not advocated by anyone nor did we ever have open boarders

''Borders.''
You are another simply bemoaning the fact we've left, all the points you've raised have been talked to death and beyond for over 5 years. With respect,
we don't need to hear any more about why we should have stayed, what we did or didn't understand and how upset some folk are about it.
Our current and future relations with this group is what this is now about.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

According to latest poll 73% agree with ending free movement with only 17% wanting it to continue.

Leave and Remain voters both favour end to free movement, but want to keep EU rules on firms

Voters were more likely to agree with one another after discussing issues, according to research by Sir John Curtice

inews.co.uk

Well yes, that's always been the case, which is why the arguments for it
fail, if a party advocated it, it would fail, which is why we don't have it.
Immigration is now down to the points system, and I'd suggest that's fine with
the 73%.

 

[Vic]

Yeah, I'm just flicking through this and we're still hearing the same tired
arguments about Brexit that never chimed with the electorate before the vote, and now after it. Then again, it's a thread about EU/UK relations, which
have not yet developed as we've only just started, so we wait and see I suppose. But if it remains a whinge fest about why we shouldn't have done this, that and the other, then it's pointless imo.

It's not that difficult. Future relations will focus on getting back what we had, so we need constant reminders of what we had. Sometimes the "former leavers" here say the referendum result is because these arguments "never chimed with the electorate" but sometimes it was because Remain never made those arguments but just warned about such "negative" things as a plummeting pound and damage to industry and loss of ease of travel.

If every time someone reminds people of the benefits of life in the EU it wasn't met by posts about trying to rerun the referendum - and you lost - the thread will be a lot shorter.

 

[Vic]

''Borders.''
You are another simply bemoaning the fact we've left, all the points you've raised have been talked to death and beyond for over 5 years. With respect,
we don't need to hear any more about why we should have stayed, what we did or didn't understand and how upset some folk are about it.
Our current and future relations with this group is what this is now about.

See what I mean?

 

[west didsblue]

Our current and future relations with this group is what this is now about.

Any suggestions?

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Meanwhile I am willing to bet 95% of those polled who usually go abroad to holiday haven't done so and will be in for a shock when they have to queue with Americans, Brazilians, Somalians and Koreans just to get into Spain.

I'm going as soon as this covid shite permits it, I'll let you know about
the horrendous experience I'm due.

Further I'd bet near 100% of those polled who have ambitions to retire to the sun on the Costa's or in Portugal have yet to realise how cancelling free movement has made that impossible.

And I'd bet that you're 100% wrong.

 

[Saddleworth2]

The ECB will tell each country how much to raise (but not how to raise it). They'll also tell them them how much they can spend, but not necessarily how to spend it

Bit like the Barnett Formulae then?

The issue I have with free movement is economic, not because I don't like foreigners. It's pretty well the same argument Nobel prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz uses in his book on the Euro, though he puts it much more academically rigorously than I do. It's the same principal as in chemical osmosis, when you have two solutions of different density and a porous boundary. The higher density solution migrates to the lower density one until equlibirium is achieved.

People from poorer countries naturally gravitate to richer ones, as we've seen with the influx of Eastern European people from Poland and Romania. Yes, many of them contribute to our economy but they also consume resources, such as accomodation and medical services, which are finite and difficult to scale quickly. The more skilled they are (doctors, engineers, etc) the more they earn in the richer country, which is skills they deprie their home country of, as well as the tax revenue they could have contributed at home.

So the poor countries get propped up financially by those richer ones, as we've seen with the net flow of EU funds from countries like us and Germany to the likes of Poland & Romania. So it's just swings and roundabouts really. If the EU was a level-playing field, with wage levels, tax levels, opportunities & infrastructure all similar across the community, then free movement would be no issue economically. But like those chemical solutions, it isn't. There is no equilibrium. What's the incentive for countries to develop and increase their skills base if those skilled younger people just fuck off somewhere else when it suits them?

So of course people in the UK see free movement of people as a good thing because we essentially attract lots of cheap labour. But that cheap labour here isn't a good thing for the countries the workers have come from. It's one of those great liberal ideas which is the effective replacement for colonialism, except we're taking the skills from these countries rather than the raw materials.

You don't mention the fact that people also send funds back from richer to poorer countries, move back to their original country suitably enriched. Many of the young people get their education and return including doctors nurses etc. The poorer countries also seem to have a favourable view of the EU despite all the issues you outline.

The truth is that the EU is a collection of vested interests, where the Germans controlled the finances, to the detriment of most other countries (particularly in Southern Europe). The French were happy to tag along because they had the sop of the wasteful Common Agricultural Policy. It's done nothing to halt increasing authoritarianism and de-liberalisation in Poland & Hungary.

The Common Market was an excellent economic idea but the French & Germans had delusions of grandeur and wanted a vanity project involving increasing political and monetary convergence.The Euro is a sticking plaster covering up all sorts of monetary and fiscal issues. Freedom of movement was another piece of economic illiteracy, which just allowed the redistribution of scarce labour market skills (and therefore potential tax revenues) from poorer countries to richer ones.

Colin, I should have started by saying how pleased I am to see you on this thread. Your forensic analysis will be a welcome addition.

I personally feel looking forward to the new relationship on this thread is best rather than re-analysing the EU (as you can imagine, we had quite a bit of that over the last few years. And I'm sure you will recognise that many that inhabit this thread would see things a little differently). So much to go at on the new topic of our future relationship rather than bayoneting the wounded on the old stuff don't you think?

 

[Ancient Citizen]

See what I mean?

Future relations will focus on getting back what we had,

So you think we'll be spending, sorry wasting, our time arguing with the EU
about getting back what we had?
Lol.
Somehow, I doubt it.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Any suggestions?

As I said, the relationship is just a couple of days old, so as yet there isn't much,
so I'll go along with the usual good old days routine for the time being.