Alexandole Boris de Pfeffel Johnson

[west didsblue]

More ignorance.

You described it far better the last time you had a go.

There’s a desperation to equate evangelical Bible Belt right wingers in the US to British conservatives and British Christians and the reason being is to try and paint us in a particular light to win the argument.

It’s not “regressive” to want to hold off on progressing in all areas, regressing is the want to take us backwards and that’s not what the British conservative movement wants nor pushes for.

What you deem as progressive may be considered immoral by others, myself included and you don’t have a monopoly on objective morality, in fact nobody does really, when it comes to politics.

I would actually argue and you can see it in your posts, that social liberals have ironically become the most intolerant bunch of people in the country, who occupy a wide enough base, outside of the extreme fringes.

Let’s take what you’ve said specifically:

- Opposing homosexuality: this just isn’t true, there’s neither the call nor effort to do anything but to allow it in society and most social conservatives have enough libertarianism to suggest it’s no ones business. Now you’re not going to see me at pride but I have friends that are gay and I don’t have any problem with them and neither do social conservatives in Britain, generally speaking.

- Integration: this is actually the opposite of what’s true, every prominent social conservative out there wants to reduce immigration to ensure we can focus on a smaller number, to integrate people better.

- Multiculturalism: first one you’ve got right, I am totally against this in any society on the planet. You want to move to another country? Then you adopt their values and customs and integrate into their way of life. That’s true of people coming to the Far East here and it’s true of Brits on the Costa Del Sol.

- Secularism: again, totally false, religious freedom and atheist/agnostic freedom is prominent in social conservatism, it’s an ideology that pushes for freedom of thought, not the opposite. There are many social conservatives that are atheist and openly say it.

- Living out of wedlock/one parent families: there’s a bloody good reason for this, you’re far more likely to end up in a low income job or jobless and far more
likely to turn to crime, if one of your parents is not in your life. My parents got divorced when I was ten so I am not biased here, but a two parent household generally speaking, across all studies in the world, produces children more likely to become successful and abide by the law later in life. Only the modern left could argue against this point.

For someone who rails against identity politics you don’t half go on about “the left” a lot as if they are a homogeneous group.

 

[Ban-jani]

For someone who rails against identity politics you don’t half go on about “the left” a lot as if they are a homogeneous group.

“The left” is a set of views, identity politics is referring to your characteristics, that the vast majority of time, you can’t change... unless your name is Michael Jackson.

 

[urban genie]

More ignorance.

You described it far better the last time you had a go.

There’s a desperation to equate evangelical Bible Belt right wingers in the US to British conservatives and British Christians and the reason being is to try and paint us in a particular light to win the argument.

It’s not “regressive” to want to hold off on progressing in all areas, regressing is the want to take us backwards and that’s not what the British conservative movement wants nor pushes for.

What you deem as progressive may be considered immoral by others, myself included and you don’t have a monopoly on objective morality, in fact nobody does really, when it comes to politics.

I would actually argue and you can see it in your posts, that social liberals have ironically become the most intolerant bunch of people in the country, who occupy a wide enough base, outside of the extreme fringes.

Let’s take what you’ve said specifically:

- Opposing homosexuality: this just isn’t true, there’s neither the call nor effort to do anything but to allow it in society and most social conservatives have enough libertarianism to suggest it’s no ones business. Now you’re not going to see me at pride but I have friends that are gay and I don’t have any problem with them and neither do social conservatives in Britain, generally speaking.

- Integration: this is actually the opposite of what’s true, every prominent social conservative out there wants to reduce immigration to ensure we can focus on a smaller number, to integrate people better.

- Multiculturalism: first one you’ve got right, I am totally against this in any society on the planet. You want to move to another country? Then you adopt their values and customs and integrate into their way of life. That’s true of people coming to the Far East here and it’s true of Brits on the Costa Del Sol.

- Secularism: again, totally false, religious freedom and atheist/agnostic freedom is prominent in social conservatism, it’s an ideology that pushes for freedom of thought, not the opposite. There are many social conservatives that are atheist and openly say it.

- Living out of wedlock/one parent families: there’s a bloody good reason for this, you’re far more likely to end up in a low income job or jobless and far more
likely to turn to crime, if one of your parents is not in your life. My parents got divorced when I was ten so I am not biased here, but a two parent household generally speaking, across all studies in the world, produces children more likely to become successful and abide by the law later in life. Only the modern left could argue against this point.

I never said social conservatism had anything in common woth British conservatism or one nation conservatism.

I said social conservatism is a popular idea in the US and amongst born again christians, never mentioned the bible belt either, it is you who has put that link together.

Social conservatism isn't in any way like traditional or contemporary British conservatism and I am not trying to link them.

You say your a social conservative, fine, I couldn't give a fuck if you are, someone asked what one is, I told them, you linked it to consevatism here not me.

I am not sure with all the conviction you put in on here to denounce progressives, left wingers, and the odd posible communist yet are so insecure about your own belief that ypu have to piggy back it onto British conservatism to feel secure

Be a proud social conservative you don't need anyones approval.


As for your breakdown, I will longer than my 10 min morning break to do all that, some of us are in work you know keeping the country going ;-)

 

[Ban-jani]

I never said social conservatism had anything in common woth British conservatism or one nation conservatism.

I said social conservatism is a popular idea in the US and amongst born again christians, never mentioned the bible belt either, it is you who has put that link together.

Social conservatism isn't in any way like traditional or contemporary British conservatism and I am not trying to link them.

You say your a social conservative, fine, I couldn't give a fuck if you are, someone asked what one is, I told them, you linked it to consevatism here not me.

I am not sure with all the conviction you put in on here to denounce progressives, left wingers, and the odd posible communist yet are so insecure about your own belief that ypu have to piggy back it onto British conservatism to feel secure

Be a proud social conservative you don't need anyones approval.


As for your breakdown, I will longer than my 10 min morning break to do all that, some of us are in work you know keeping the country going ;-)

I sent it before I started work!

I think we’re discussing two different things. Social conservatism isn’t separate from general conservatism, both here and in the US, it’s just the social side of conservatism, like economic conservatism is the other side.

I don’t view social conservatism as just or possibly not, what you’ve described it as there.

Social conservatism in Britain is your centre right, traditionalist view. It might be different in America but we’re not in America.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Indeed. And you can see this in the way people vote (or don’t vote).

2019 General Election:
Labour 10.3m votes
Conservatives 13.9m votes
Registered voters who didn’t vote, 15.5m.

View attachment 10822

View attachment 10823

There’s all this talk of “the rise of the far right” “the rise in the split between left and right in Britain” and even “the rise of the SNP”; yet next to nobody ever votes for the far right and Labour were the only party to lose votes, plus more people didn’t vote than voted SNP in Scotland.

The Green Party gained more votes (339,078) in 2019 than the Conservatives did (304,402), and the Lib Dems gained ~3.2m, while Labour lost ~2.6m.

But despite any losses or gains from any party or the myth of the far right gaining traction; in the two most voted in elections since 1997 (2017+2019), non-voters still had the biggest impact on the outcome. Non-voters are the biggest political party in Britain!

Mostly because, as you say, most people are in the middle and they are sick to death of fringe nobodies who seem to have the biggest mouths, are most active on social media, and just can’t shut the fuck up with their minority crackpot ideals that nearly all of the rest of the country disagree with.

Ive always believed that we should move to a system of ''compulsory'' voting.(even if one of the options is none of the above).. i think Australia operates one.

 

[urban genie]

I sent it before I started work!

I think we’re discussing two different things. Social conservatism isn’t separate from general conservatism, both here and in the US, it’s just the social side of conservatism, like economic conservatism is the other side.

I don’t view social conservatism as just or possibly not, what you’ve described it as there.

Social conservatism in Britain is your centre right, traditionalist view. It might be different in America but we’re not in America.

No we are discussing the same thing, you are just mixing a deeply flawed form of conservatism in with our nations version, social conservatism isn't not centre right conservatism in any way shape or form.

Bit you won't accept it as you truly believe you know what you are talking about so whats the point in trying to tell you you're not

 

[Ban-jani]

No we are discussing the same thing, you are just mixing a deeply flawed form of conservatism in with our nations version, social conservatism isn't not centre right conservatism in any way shape or form.

Bit you won't accept it as you truly believe you know what you are talking about so whats the point in trying to tell you you're not

Is social conservatism not just the policies that relate to social policies within conservatism?

The same as you can be a liberal socially and not economically. Corbyn is a social liberal but economic socialist, if you catch my drift?

And they would differ but also have things in common right across the world?

Come on, we can have a good chat here, I just took exception to your first post which I felt didn’t reflect it properly, there’s no need to fall out over it.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Is social conservatism not just the policies that relate to social policies within conservatism?

The same as you can be a liberal socially and not economically. Corbyn is a social liberal but economic socialist, if you catch my drift?

And they would differ but also have things in common right across the world?

Come on, we can have a good chat here, I just took exception to your first post which I felt didn’t reflect it properly, there’s no need to fall out over it.

please elucidate...... what Conservative policies help the average person?

 

[Ban-jani]

please elucidate...... what Conservative policies help the average person?

Well we’ve already been over some. I’ll give you a fexamples for now but can give more if you want:

- The family unit being the centre piece of society. Every study shows a breakdown of this leads to crime and poverty.

- Tough on crime. Doesn’t need explaining.

- Tighter immigration controls. Doesn’t need explaining.

- Preservation of our institutions. Doesn’t need explaining.

- A view of liberty under law. Having a strong sense of law but allowing freedom beneath that is a cornerstone of western civilisation.

- A private sector that can trade freely, which lifts people out of poverty and allows them to own their own property. (Worth noting I am not neoliberal and I support a big safety net to help those that the private sector fails)


Now, I’m going to counter two points I think you might make:

1) “but the Tories...” yes I know, they don’t have a monopoly on conservatism as an ideology and they certainly don’t live up to my standards of it.

2) “some of these aren’t exclusive to the right” again, yes I know, traditional Labour governments of the mid 20th century supported some of these ideas and that’s why I admire Bevan, Attlee etc.

 

[Rascal]

For someone who rails against identity politics you don’t half go on about “the left” a lot as if they are a homogeneous group.

Those nasty lefties, with all there do gooding.

 

[Ban-jani]

Those nasty lefties, with all there do gooding.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Those nasty lefties, with all there do gooding.

Wasn't Hitler a social Conservative?

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Mostly because, as you say, most people are in the middle and they are sick to death of fringe nobodies who seem to have the biggest mouths, are most active on social media, and just can’t shut the fuck up with their minority crackpot ideals that nearly all of the rest of the country disagree with.

How true, that describes many on here, but the reality of the situation is
now stark, minority crackpot ideals are getting the old heave-ho. According
to a recent Com Res poll, Johnson has increased his popularity rating from
38 to 43, whilst Starmer has dropped from 31 to 27.
At this stage into his tenure even Magic Grandpa was polling higher.

 

[jaseirai]

How true, that describes many on here, but the reality of the situation is
now stark, minority crackpot ideals are getting the old heave-ho. According
to a recent Com Res poll, Johnson has increased his popularity rating from
38 to 43, whilst Starmer has dropped from 31 to 27.
At this stage into his tenure even Magic Grandpa was polling higher.

Hard to believe he’s in the lead with all the food riots, medicine shortages and sterling’s collapse.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Hard to believe he’s in the lead with all the food riots, medicine shortages and sterling’s collapse.

Lol, indeed it is.

 

[Ban-jani]

Wasn't Hitler a social Conservative?

No, he imprisoned social conservatives.

Behind communists, conservatives and social democrats were his biggest opposition.

The traditional German movement saw him as an ally at first and then quickly became horrified at what he said and did.

Edit: both the left and the right have wrongly tried to tie Hitler to each other’s opposition since the 40’s. With the right saying he evoked a type of socialism to his politics and the left saying he was right wing in his social policies. Whilst both are somewhat correct, every single one of us espousing our politics, openly, in Berlin in 1933-1945, would have been lined up and shot. You, me, Rascal, Urban, Fumble, AC... everyone on this forum would have been an enemy to Hitler and killed if we publicly spoke in favour of our views.

 

[Rascal]

Wasn't Hitler a social Conservative?

Yes. Especially in terms of his greater emphasis upon nationalism and isolationism, pro social hierarchy in terms of gender, ethnicity, and race.

He was very much a Social Conservative.

You could even argue that the lack of condemnation of him from the Papacy cemented it.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

No, he imprisoned social conservatives.

Behind communists, conservatives and social democrats were his biggest opposition.

The traditional German movement saw him as an ally at first and then quickly became horrified at what he said and did.

Edit: both the left and the right have wrongly tried to tie Hitler to each other’s opposition since the 40’s. With the right saying he evoked a type of socialism to his politics and the left saying he was right wing in his social policies. Whilst both are somewhat correct, every single one of us espousing our politics, openly, in Berlin in 1933-1945, would have been lined up and shot. You, me, Rascal, Urban, Fumble, AC... everyone on this forum would have been an enemy to Hitler and killed if we publicly spoke in favour of our views.

Isn't the danger that you face by voting for this hypothetical social Conservative party that harks back to a forgotten cultural golden era that you may be empowering a wolf in sheep's clothing. Someone who professes these kind of views and faith in democracy but then erodes checks and balances and institutions, and then starts inflicting inhumane treatment on minorities or opponents. Hitler is the extreme of this because he had unconstrained power and greater opportunity but there are examples from modern times in Trump, Peace and Justice in Poland and Orban in Hungary.

 

[Ban-jani]

Isn't the danger that you face by voting for this hypothetical social Conservative party that harks back to a forgotten cultural golden era that you may be empowering a wolf in sheep's clothing. Someone who professes these kind of views and faith in democracy but then erodes checks and balances and institutions, and then starts inflicting inhumane treatment on minorities or opponents. Hitler is the extreme of this because he had unconstrained power and greater opportunity but there are examples from modern times in Trump, Peace and Justice in Poland and Orban in Hungary.

Have you considered voting Labour could do exactly the same but for communism and we could end up with a Stalin?

In the grand scheme of things you’re left of centre and I am right of centre, we don’t need to be accusing the other of being extreme.

This country has been conservative for decades, maybe even centuries and never had a Hitler in the modern age... or any age. It’s partly why I support the monarchy. The monarch has some controls on the PM and Parliament on the Monarch.

My views contradict Hitler’s completely, this sort of soft accusation is both baffling and laughable to be honest but it’s where we are in 2021, I have to somehow prove why my views don’t support a Hitler type or something that could lead to it, despite never uttering stuff that is Nazism.

Ironically the Jewish left one party in their droves in 2019 but even then, I wouldn’t accuse that of being your fault.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Well we’ve already been over some. I’ll give you a fexamples for now but can give more if you want:

- The family unit being the centre piece of society. Every study shows a breakdown of this leads to crime and poverty.

- Tough on crime. Doesn’t need explaining.

- Tighter immigration controls. Doesn’t need explaining.

- Preservation of our institutions. Doesn’t need explaining.

- A view of liberty under law. Having a strong sense of law but allowing freedom beneath that is a cornerstone of western civilisation.

- A private sector that can trade freely, which lifts people out of poverty and allows them to own their own property. (Worth noting I am not neoliberal and I support a big safety net to help those that the private sector fails)


Now, I’m going to counter two points I think you might make:

1) “but the Tories...” yes I know, they don’t have a monopoly on conservatism as an ideology and they certainly don’t live up to my standards of it.

2) “some of these aren’t exclusive to the right” again, yes I know, traditional Labour governments of the mid 20th century supported some of these ideas and that’s why I admire Bevan, Attlee etc.

- The family unit being the centre piece of society. Every study shows a breakdown of this leads to crime and poverty.

From the party that capped Child Benefit at a maximum of two children (irrespective of how many kids you had or your religious beliefs , introduced the bedroom tax and voted against feeding disadvantaged kids during the school holidays in the middle of a pandemic.

- Tough on crime. Doesn’t need explaining.

From the party that reduced police front line numbers by 23000 since 2010 has seen the number of rape convictions drop to practically zero etc etc

A view of liberty under law. Having a strong sense of law but allowing freedom beneath that is a cornerstone of western civilisation.

How does this help the average person ? There isn't a policy introduced by the Tories that doesn't contain an element of punishment (usually disproportionate and weighted against those that cant afford it )

A private sector that can trade freely, which lifts people out of poverty and allows them to own their own property.

Vast majority of the employed in the uk have to access some form of welfare be it child allowance , income support, tax credits etc..... i in every 4 in the UK live below the internationally recognised poverty line. They are supported by the tax payer whilst the wealthy avoid paying the correct level of tax. I dont think that or kids will be able to afford their own property either.