HS2 - Birmingham to Manchester scrapped.

Dave Ewing's Back 'eader said:
Yeah, the Manchester to Leeds line needs the upgrade! I think the same amount of money spent on Crossrail should give us a nice line!
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…………………………………………..Leeds————
Liverpool——Manchester——…………………..Hull
…………………………………………..Sheffield——

…is what really needs a High Speed electric railway system!

We can already get to London in two hours by train, there’s no need to get there any quicker at the moment. We need that Northern belt of cities joining up properly. We must be half a century, if not a century, behind the times up North when it comes to public transport.

Manchester itself needs a hugely improved public transport infrastructure. It’s looked upon as good for some bizarre reason, when it’s woeful! There’s too much traffic on the roads and too much of the public transport infrastructure is on the roads with the cars. In this day and age, in a conurbation like Manchester, hardly anyone should need a car. A better transport system should be able to shift people where they need to go, anywhere in the city, 24/7. We need to start thinking like it’s the 2020s, not the 1950s.

Bus routes need roads where cars aren’t parked up the sides of the roads slowing the bus route down. It’s infuriating when you’re sat on a stationary bus because it can’t flow down its lane because cars are lining the streets in front of empty driveways or on roads where the pavement has grass verges that aren’t used for anything (apart from dogs to piss and shit) but could be made into car parking spots instead of parking in the road.

There needs to be far more and far better sectioned cycle lanes, cycle only roads, and cycle-specific off road routes developed. As well as huge investment into the cycling industry because there aren’t enough repair shops or bike parts because of the surge in numbers of people turning to bikes overtaking what we have in the country. There are waiting times of weeks to get bikes repaired or serviced at the moment because there aren’t enough repair shops, my local repair shop has had a steady two week wait to book in over the last 2 years, they’re so busy.

We need a much quicker system that goes from Salford Quays, through the city centre, out to the Etihad Campus. The Metrloink is painfully slow and on the road network; the road network is painfully slow and always chocka…
monorail? underground? something!

We need a much quicker system that goes from the Airport to the city centre.

If you live in Wythenshawe you can cycle to Manchester city centre more quickly than public transport can get you there. If you don’t have a car and live in Wythenshawe, it takes you longer to get to the Etihad for a City game than it does someone driving from the West Midlands.
 
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Psychedelic Casual said:
…………………………………………..Leeds————
Liverpool——Manchester——…………………..Hull
…………………………………………..Sheffield——

…is what really needs a High Speed electric railway system!

We can already get to London in two hours by train, there’s no need to get there any quicker at the moment. We need that Northern belt of cities joining up properly. We must be half a century, if not a century, behind the times up North when it comes to public transport.

Manchester itself needs a hugely improved public transport infrastructure. It’s looked upon as good for some bizarre reason, when it’s woeful! There’s too much traffic on the roads and too much of the public transport infrastructure is on the roads with the cars. In this day and age, in a conurbation like Manchester, hardly anyone should need a car. A better transport system should be able to shift people where they need to go, anywhere in the city, 24/7. We need to start thinking like it’s the 2020s, not the 1950s.

Bus routes need roads where cars aren’t parked up the sides of the roads slowing the bus route down. It’s infuriating when you’re sat on a stationary bus because it can’t flow down its lane because cars are lining the streets in front of empty driveways or on roads where the pavement has grass verges that aren’t used for anything (apart from dogs to piss and shit) but could be made into car parking spots instead of parking in the road.

There needs to be far more and far better sectioned cycle lanes, cycle only roads, and cycle-specific off road routes developed. As well as huge investment into the cycling industry because there aren’t enough repair shops or bike parts because of the surge in numbers of people turning to bikes overtaking what we have in the country. There are waiting times of weeks to get bikes repaired or serviced at the moment because there aren’t enough repair shops, my local repair shop has had a steady two week wait to book in over the last 2 years, they’re so busy.

We need a much quicker system that goes from Salford Quays, through the city centre, out to the Etihad Campus. The Metrloink is painfully slow and on the road network; the road network is painfully slow and always chocka…
monorail? underground? something!

We need a much quicker system that goes from the Airport to the city centre.

If you live in Wythenshawe you can cycle to Manchester city centre more quickly than public transport can get you there. If you don’t have a car and live in Wythenshawe, it takes you longer to get to the Etihad for a City game than it does someone driving from the West Midlands.
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Yes, this is all true but you threw out a way of keeping traffic off the roads. You need to get people out of cars - good luck with that. The only way to do it is (whisper it quietly) a congestion charge.

Auckland used to have a real problem north of the city but brought in massive out of town parking linked with a dedicated bus service that has a separate lane to get you into the city centre way quicker than in a car.
 
Fat Larrys Band said:
www.theguardian.com

Depleted and unwanted, HS2 hurtles on as Johnson’s £100bn vanity project | Simon Jenkins

It has cost the taxpayer billions without a mile of track being laid – and it won’t even go north of Crewe, says Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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So many errors and dodgy assumptions in Jenkin's article I don't know where to start. But his stance is no surprise, he is pretty much against all development of any kind, anywhere.
marco said:
said years back it would go not further than Birmingham
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Jenkins is claiming it won't ever go north of Crewe.

I think he is wrong about that, but surely Crewe is north of Birmingham !
 
Also adding in the fact that HS2 have purchased at least 7 businesses in Piccadilly in preparation for the station redevelopment in recent weeks, makes me think it will still arrive in Manchester. I also think it will arrive quicker than anticipated. I think it’s the Eastern Leg that will be scrapped and the saving put into delivering Manchester.
 
dickie davies said:
That's nearly all commuter passengers of people working in London
It's only made London more accessible

One of the main arguments in favour of Hs2 is that it would increase the wealth of the provinces, when in fact the study of high speed rail in France concluded the opposite
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I'm sure Northern Powerhouse can make a case for HS2. Northern Powerhouse has its HQ in...............er........London.
 
NeilYoungIsBack said:
So many errors and dodgy assumptions in Jenkin's article I don't know where to start. But his stance is no surprise, he is pretty much against all development of any kind, anywhere.

Jenkins is claiming it won't ever go north of Crewe.

I think he is wrong about that, but surely Crewe is north of Birmingham !
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Jenkins has been wrong about everything for the last 25 years. I remember him writing an article saying the financial problems in the US caused by dodgy mortgage business would not affect UK as we had no risky lending. That worked out well.
 
Love the fact that HS2 doesn’t connect to HS1, or Cross Rail. Not forgetting that the new Birmingham station is a mile from New Street interchange!
 
Chrisja1000 said:
Also adding in the fact that HS2 have purchased at least 7 businesses in Piccadilly in preparation for the station redevelopment in recent weeks, makes me think it will still arrive in Manchester. I also think it will arrive quicker than anticipated. I think it’s the Eastern Leg that will be scrapped and the saving put into delivering Manchester.
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I've never been convinced that a high speed trans Pennine route makes much sense. Far too expensive and far too disruptive (i.e. it would need loads of houses demolished) for the gains that would be made. Basically, the distance between the stops wouldn't long enough to justify engineering through a densely populated area and/or tricky hilly terrain.

I'd rather see a decent upgrade of the existing Transpennine route: i.e. electrification (already started, to be fair) and four-tracking throughout to enable a mix of express services and stoppers. Quad tracking would still be expensive and need some demolitions, but nothing like as expensive as a highspeed route which would surely need major new tunnelling if the political difficulties of cutting large swathes through existing urban areas is to be avoided.
 
NeilYoungIsBack said:
So many errors and dodgy assumptions in Jenkin's article I don't know where to start. But his stance is no surprise, he is pretty much against all development of any kind, anywhere.

Jenkins is claiming it won't ever go north of Crewe.

I think he is wrong about that, but surely Crewe is north of Birmingham !
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yes a whopping 57.4 miles,,,,big deal
 
I worked for British Rail back in the 80s and early 90s and in the files at Victoria was the plans to upgrade Victoria, I'm guessing it would have been from the mid 60s electrifying the whole station and expanding it, as I recall it would have made it the largest station in the UK. Odd City connection, it would have included turning the line that goes along the side of the ground becoming the mainline to London(Piccadilly was to be closed and Mayfield maintained). So I have always taken any expansion plans, railway-wise as, I will believe it when I see it! The great advantage of Victoria being until the Ordsall curve Piccadilly was, ironically one of the few places in the UK you couldn't get to directly from Victoria!
 
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NeilYoungIsBack said:
I've never been convinced that a high speed trans Pennine route makes much sense. Far too expensive and far too disruptive (i.e. it would need loads of houses demolished) for the gains that would be made. Basically, the distance between the stops wouldn't long enough to justify engineering through a densely populated area and/or tricky hilly terrain.

I'd rather see a decent upgrade of the existing Transpennine route: i.e. electrification (already started, to be fair) and four-tracking throughout to enable a mix of express services and stoppers. Quad tracking would still be expensive and need some demolitions, but nothing like as expensive as a highspeed route which would surely need major new tunnelling if the political difficulties of cutting large swathes through existing urban areas is to be avoided.
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The Transpennine route is already being upgraded but it has been done on the cheap. There are some really problematic areas like Mossley where the track is in a cutting and you have houses that back onto the line with no space for the overhead line equipment.
Personally I still prefer an upgrade to the Hope Valley line, it will need new tunnels, but they could be combined with new tunnels to relieve the traffic along the A628. We still need a decent southern route across the Pennines and have needed one for the last 40yrs.
 
DontLookBackInAnger said:
Odd City connection, it would have included turning the line that goes along the side of the ground becoming the mainline to London(Piccadilly was to be closed and Mayfield maintained).
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The Ashbury's-Phillips Park chord?

It seems like it could be put to a bit more use? I think the old Scotland to Harwich boat trains used to use that route until the late 1980s.

Pre-Covid there was also a once per week TPE service to Scarborough that used it, presumably so that drivers could retain route knowledge?
 
Kompany Car said:
The Transpennine route is already being upgraded but it has been done on the cheap. There are some really problematic areas like Mossley where the track is in a cutting and you have houses that back onto the line with no space for the overhead line equipment.
Personally I still prefer an upgrade to the Hope Valley line, it will need new tunnels, but they could be combined with new tunnels to relieve the traffic along the A628. We still need a decent southern route across the Pennines and have needed one for the last 40yrs.
Click to expand...

Yes, I was specifically thinking about those terraced houses in Mossley when I mentioned demolitions.

I agree the Hope Valley route also deserves a major upgrade. Isn't there some improvement work now underway at Dore/Totley junction?
 
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