United Thread - 2021/22

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Bluesince88 said:
Never understand why people mock him for feeding kids. Shows the wankers we have supporting us I suppose. Happily say how shit he is, weirdos who mock his work out of football need dissolving.
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But it's the charity that are feeding the kids. He's just a high profile PR led figurehead. No disrespect but you've fallen for it.
 
rickmcfc said:
completely agree.
Q1 When deciding to have children should be “can we afford this”
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indeed you should but you have to recognise that over the 18 years of bringing up that child your situation can and is likely to change significantly.
If everyone decided to only have kids based on the worst case financial scenarios for the next 18 years, only people with generational wealth (thats the top 5% of richest people in the country) would have kids.

In the time i have had kids my household income has ranged from fucking lots (two high rate income tax payers) to absolutely fuck all and all points in between.

to the poster who you were replying to, they need to educate themselves that most people on benefits are not playing the system, but are just trying to survive. The vast majority of the poor are not lazy feckless scroungers, they are just poor. The help we give to the poor should not be based on the very small numbers who play the system, but the vast majority who are in need. In the same way the tax system, which is used to pay for the social welfare system, is based on the majority of law abiding citizens not the small minority who play the system.
 
jacko74 said:
It's not just those who can't afford kids, the whole child related benefits system is completely out of control, parents on well above the UK national average wage can still be entitled to TC/UC.

I know plenty of people in my industry who earn well above the National Minimum Wage yet they deliberately chose to work minimal/optimal part time hours because they're better off doing that and claiming child tax credits even though permanent full time hours are available for them.
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And I know absolutely none.
Yet i know a lot of poor families, through volunteering at a food bank etc.

But what does this prove? nothing, other than you know either know a lot of cunts or are making assumptions about why they work as they work and possibly i am too trusting of people.

You also need to factor in the bravado and spin people put on their lives. If you are receiving benefits, what are you going to tell the world to make you feel good about yourself? That you cant afford to provide for your loved ones and be judged a loser or lazy, or do you claim to be playing the system which shows a degree of intelligence and planning?
If you feel trapped and can see no way out of the situation and benefits are your income for the next 10, 20, 30 years which story gives you any degree of pride in your life.
We need to change the narrative that is told about the poor. We need to stop vilifying those on benefits, the likes of the Mail, the express and the torygraph need to shut the fuck up.
We also need to restructure the benefits system so that its always better to work. We should not do this by reducing the current benefits but by tapering the way benefits stop. For example 10 quid you earn extra you should lose 5 quid in benefits, therefore are still 5 quid better off. As opposed to the hard stop most benefits currently have, earn x amount get full benefits, earn x plus 1 get no benefits.
This would be more expensive than the current system and does not allow shitbag politicians to use the poor as a major cause of the countries ills (you know along with immigrants) so probably not happening under the current government
 
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pirate said:
indeed you should but you have to recognise that over the 18 years of bringing up that child your situation can and is likely to change significantly.
If everyone decided to only have kids based on the worst case financial scenarios for the next 18 years, only people with generational wealth (thats the top 5% of richest people in the country) would have kids.

In the time i have had kids my household income has ranged from fucking lots (two high rate income tax payers) to absolutely fuck all and all points in between.

to the poster who you were replying to, they need to educate themselves that most people on benefits are not playing the system, but are just trying to survive. The vast majority of the poor are not lazy feckless scroungers, they are just poor. The help we give to the poor should not be based on the very small numbers who play the system, but the vast majority who are in need. In the same way the tax system, which is used to pay for the social welfare system, is based on the majority of law abiding citizens not the small minority who play the system.
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You're just plain wrong, you seem to be confused and conflating two different issues.

I'm not referring to people committing out and out benefit fraud.

When it comes to child tax credits the large majority of claimants are playing the system and choosing to limit the amount of hours they work, even when earning considerably above National Minimum Wage and even when full time hours are available to them, they choose to work part time hours and claim optimal TC/UC.... they're not committing fraud, just playing a profligate and incompetently administrated system.
 
jacko74 said:
You're just plain wrong, you seem to be confused and conflating two different issues.

I'm not referring to people committing out and out benefit fraud.

When it comes to child tax credits the large majority of claimants are playing the system and choosing to limit the amount of hours they work, even when earning considerably above National Minimum Wage and even when full time hours are available to them, they choose to work part time hours and claim optimal TC/UC.... they're not committing fraud, just playing a profligate and incompetently administrated system.
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Have you got a link for this evidence? I'd be interested in having a read. Thanks.
 
jacko74 said:
You're just plain wrong, you seem to be confused and conflating two different issues.

I'm not referring to people committing out and out benefit fraud.

When it comes to child tax credits the large majority of claimants are playing the system and choosing to limit the amount of hours they work, even when earning considerably above National Minimum Wage and even when full time hours are available to them, they choose to work part time hours and claim optimal TC/UC.... they're not committing fraud, just playing a profligate and incompetently administrated system.
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Where is your evidence that the large majority of tax credits and universal credits (that would be over 60 or 70% of claimants, surely less than 60% isnt a large majority) are playing the system by choosing to work less hours to keep their benefits?
There are 7 million people claiming tax credits and 6 million people claiming universal credit. There will be some overlap but about 10 million people claim either one or both of these. According to you somewhere between 6 and 7 million people are lazy feckless fuckers playing the system.
There is no evidence I can find for this anywhere.

In addition I meet a couple of hundred of these families each month and literally not one of them is doing this.
 
pirate said:
Where is your evidence that the large majority of tax credits and universal credits (that would be over 60 or 70% of claimants, surely less than 60% isnt a large majority) are playing the system by choosing to work less hours to keep their benefits?
There are 7 million people claiming tax credits and 6 million people claiming universal credit. There will be some overlap but about 10 million people claim either one or both of these. According to you somewhere between 6 and 7 million people are lazy feckless fuckers playing the system.
There is no evidence I can find for this anywhere.

In addition I meet a couple of hundred of these families each month and literally not one of them is doing this.
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I'm guessing the Daily Mail is the go to "source"?


Back on topic.

Manchester United have asked his Holiness to bless them during their "COVID" outbreak. A spokesman for the pontiff replied "Fuck off!"
 
jacko74 said:
You're just plain wrong, you seem to be confused and conflating two different issues.

I'm not referring to people committing out and out benefit fraud.

When it comes to child tax credits the large majority of claimants are playing the system and choosing to limit the amount of hours they work, even when earning considerably above National Minimum Wage and even when full time hours are available to them, they choose to work part time hours and claim optimal TC/UC.... they're not committing fraud, just playing a profligate and incompetently administrated system.
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One of the hallmarks of a civilised society is that we provide a basic safety net for those who are out of work, can't work due to health issues, whose income is volatile or simply don't earn enough to provide for their basic needs.

It's well proven that where they've experimented with Universal Basic Income, people actually work harder rather than relying on that UBI to support them. If people feel secure that their basic needs are met, they are more entrepreneurial, more productive and family life is enhanced.

This "people shouldn't have kids if they can't afford them" nonsense belongs in the Victorian era, along with workhouses and debtors prisons. And you don't seem to understand how UC works. If you work and receive an income, the amount of UC you get tapers, so you lose 55p of UC for every £1 you earn. The more you earn therefore, the less UC you receive, until it stops completely when your earnings get to a certain limit.

You should spend a day in a Job Centre or in a DWP call centre instead of reading the hysterical, ill-informed shite in the Express or Mail.
 
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Prestwich_Blue said:
One of the hallmarks of a civilised society is that we provide a basic safety net for those who are out of work, can't work due to health issues, whose income is volatile or simply don't earn enough to provide for their basic needs.

It's well proven that where they've experimented with Universal Basic Income, people actually work harder rather than relying on that UBI to support them. If people feel secure that their basic needs are met, they are more entrepreneurial, more productive and family life is enhanced.

This "people shouldn't have kids if they can't afford them" nonsense belongs in the Victorian era, along with workhouses and debtors prisons. And you don't seem to understand how UC works. If you work and receive an income, the amount of UC you get tapers, so you lose 55p of UC for every £1 you earn. The more you earn therefore, the less UC you receive, until it stops completely when your earnings get to a certain limit.

You should spend a day in a Job Centre or in a DWP call centre instead of reading the hysterical, ill-informed shite in the Express or Mail.
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PB you are right on the taper.
To address a previous post too the approximated value on Benefit fraud is £6.3 billion - yes billion. The largest factor with in this is failure to declare earnings.
It is also well known that an unspecified number of collusive employers offer 16 hour contracts then pay the remaining hours cash only.
 
pirate said:
And I know absolutely none.
Yet i know a lot of poor families, through volunteering at a food bank etc.

But what does this prove? nothing, other than you know either know a lot of cunts or are making assumptions about why they work as they work and possibly i am too trusting of people.

You also need to factor in the bravado and spin people put on their lives. If you are receiving benefits, what are you going to tell the world to make you feel good about yourself? That you cant afford to provide for your loved ones and be judged a loser or lazy, or do you claim to be playing the system which shows a degree of intelligence and planning?
If you feel trapped and can see no way out of the situation and benefits are your income for the next 10, 20, 30 years which story gives you any degree of pride in your life.
We need to change the narrative that is told about the poor. We need to stop vilifying those on benefits, the likes of the Mail, the express and the torygraph need to shut the fuck up.
We also need to restructure the benefits system so that its always better to work. We should not do this by reducing the current benefits but by tapering the way benefits stop. For example 10 quid you earn extra you should lose 5 quid in benefits, therefore are still 5 quid better off. As opposed to the hard stop most benefits currently have, earn x amount get full benefits, earn x plus 1 get no benefits.
This would be more expensive than the current system and does not allow shitbag politicians to use the poor as a major cause of the countries ills (you know along with immigrants) so probably not happening under the current government
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/clap

also the level of benefit ‘playing the game’ is so minor compared to tax avoiding ‘playing the game’ by millionaires and upwards. They can afford to spend money to save them even more money. The poor can barely afford to spend money to stay level.

a, say, tapered 1% tax increase for those earning £million+ and a small (global) transaction tax on internet corporations earning billions, would dwarf the amount ‘lost’ by those gaming on benefits.

it’s far better for a countries economy for the money at the lowest levels to be actively circulated, and the more money that the lowest levels can circulate the better, as it benefits everyone up the chain. Hence minimum wage increases are brilliant for the economy in general, redistributing wealth and getting it spent at the lower levels. ‘Trickle down’ economics is bollox.
 
Protein Junkie said:
PB you are right on the taper.
To address a previous post too the approximated value on Benefit fraud is £6.3 billion - yes billion. The largest factor with in this is failure to declare earnings.
It is also well known that an unspecified number of collusive employers offer 16 hour contracts then pay the remaining hours cash only.
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where does the 6.3 billion figure come from?

The governments own figures are 8.4 Billion overpayments in the last financial year. (3.9% of all payments)
Reported as a mixture of government errors and fraud, but the government report makes not breakdown of how much of each
The government also reports that there were 2.5 billion in underpayments in the last financial year.
Reported as a mixture of government errors and fraud, but the government report makes not breakdown of how much of each.

www.gov.uk

Fraud and error in the benefit system for financial year ending 2021

www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
 
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