The Colston Four

[The perfect fumble]

Leniency isn’t something anyone is arguing about, neither is anyone defending Colston, it’s more the fact they were found innocent by the jury. A very small fine and a criminal record would have been sufficient. It was clearly the wrong verdict but it’s up to the jury of course and no system is ever perfect when human beings are involved. The jury of peers system is the best we have but it does occasionally throw up cases where clear bias and emotion (sometimes stupidity in other cases) has overridden the facts.

The jury came to the conclusion there was no crime, that pulling down a symbol of slavery was akin to this....

And they were right.

Besides, the British establishment has destroyed a lot more than statues to preserve the myth of colonialism, look up Operation Legacy and open your eyes.

Tell me then that what these people did was a crime

If you want to know why we're in decline and so hopelessly divided, look no further than our suffocating class system and our inability to come to terms with who we are.

"There is no future in England's dreaming"

 

[Octavian]

The jury came to the conclusion there was no crime, that pulling down a symbol of slavery was akin to this....

And they were right.

Besides, the British establishment has destroyed a lot more than statues to preserve the myth of colonialism, look up Operation Legacy and open your eyes.

Tell me then that what these people did was a crime

If you want to know why we're in decline and so hopelessly divided, look no further than our suffocating class system and our inability to come to terms with who we are.

"There is no future in England's dreaming"

You’ve not a hoping hell in me getting into a conversation with you about all that.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

The jury came to the conclusion there was no crime, that pulling down a symbol of slavery was akin to this....

And they were right.

Besides, the British establishment has destroyed a lot more than statues to preserve the myth of colonialism, look up Operation Legacy and open your eyes.

Tell me then that what these people did was a crime

If you want to know why we're in decline and so hopelessly divided, look no further than our suffocating class system and our inability to come to terms with who we are.

"There is no future in England's dreaming"

the only people dreaming are those who think they can rewrite the past and pretend it never happened, Tearing down statues reminding us of such a past is one of the few public reminders we have left, and given the lack of education and thought displayed in pulling down the message is clearly lost on a subset of society who somehow thinks its retribution, when it's nothing of the sort.

 

[meltonblue]

because people either do something, or they don't. The statue was vandalised and dumped in the river, it's a factual occurrence. How you feel afterwards is irrelevant. Same way everyone on here got pissed that no-one got prosecuted for the coach attack because that time we weren't happy about it. Facts are in both instances people committed a criminal act and were wrongly not punished for it.

It’s not a fact they were wrongly not punished for it, it’s an opinion and one based on not hearing all of the defence argument in court.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Gammon history class - no more history

 

[The perfect fumble]

You’ve not a hoping hell in me getting into a conversation with you about all that.

Fine by me.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

It’s not a fact they were wrongly not punished for it, it’s an opinion and one based on not hearing all of the defence argument in court.

No, it's a fact. It ended up in the river just like our coach ended up beyond repair at Anfield. Didn't happen by magic.

 

[yerwot?]

The jury came to the conclusion there was no crime, that pulling down a symbol of slavery was akin to this....

And they were right.

Besides, the British establishment has destroyed a lot more than statues to preserve the myth of colonialism, look up Operation Legacy and open your eyes.

Tell me then that what these people did was a crime

If you want to know why we're in decline and so hopelessly divided, look no further than our suffocating class system and our inability to come to terms with who we are.

"There is no future in England's dreaming"

top post, the "class" divide gets wider, as democracy is systematically eroded.

 

[ZenHalfTimeCrock]

You’re far too intelligent for me to start quoting Hume haha!

I’m a simple bloke who likes to be straight forward. These four are on video camera causing criminal damage to public property, the emotional side of it should have come with sentencing imo as guilt isn’t a question as they’ve clearly committed a crime.

This has got my head spinning a bit too.

And with respect to Hume…

Should We Continue to Honor Hume With Buildings and Statues? (updated) - Daily Nous

(UPDATE: This post, originally published in July, has been moved to the top of the page and updated with the news that the University of Edinburgh has decided to rename Hume Tower. See here.) A campaign is underway to pressure the University of Edinburgh to rename Hume Tower. The building, named...

dailynous.com

Immanuel Kant’s lowly regard for “the Negroes of Africa” cannot be regarded as an aberration too. And there’s a statue of him in Kaliningrad.

I like your suggestion, though. The only issue for me is the extent to which a criminal record impedes those who acquire one in their subsequent lives.

Not sure about whether your confidence in Judges might be misplaced, though. In reading about the history of subsequent legal cases to do with abortion in the USA following on from Roe v Wade, I have come across some very strange decisions on their part.

 

[ZenHalfTimeCrock]

No, it's a fact. It ended up in the river just like our coach ended up beyond repair at Anfield. Didn't happen by magic.

The relationship between facts and opinions/moral evaluations of those facts is by no means straightforward and been the subject of much debate:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is–ought_problem

 

[Octavian]

This has got my head spinning a bit too.

And with respect to Hume…

Should We Continue to Honor Hume With Buildings and Statues? (updated) - Daily Nous

(UPDATE: This post, originally published in July, has been moved to the top of the page and updated with the news that the University of Edinburgh has decided to rename Hume Tower. See here.) A campaign is underway to pressure the University of Edinburgh to rename Hume Tower. The building, named...

dailynous.com

Immanuel Kant’s lowly regard for “the Negroes of Africa” cannot be regarded as an aberration too. And there’s a statue of him in Kaliningrad.

I like your suggestion, though. The only issue for me is the extent to which a criminal record impedes those who acquire one in their subsequent lives.

Not sure about whether your confidence in Judges might be misplaced, though. In reading about the history of subsequent legal cases to do with abortion in the USA following on from Roe v Wade, I have come across some very strange decisions on their part.

I read that Gandhi thought Africans were lesser humans too.

The past is a mine field with character judging.

I think it’s fairly clear with Colston, even if he did philanthropy towards the English.

 

[meltonblue]

No, it's a fact. It ended up in the river just like our coach ended up beyond repair at Anfield. Didn't happen by magic.

It’s a fact they damaged the statue. It’s not a fact that means it’s criminal damage.

If you did use that logic that it automatically makes it so, you’d never have self defence as a means of acquittal for assault for example.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

It’s a fact they damaged the statue. It’s not a fact that means it’s criminal damage.

If you did use that logic that it automatically makes it so, you’d never have self defence as a means of acquittal for assault for example.

Self defence against a statue. There's a leap.

"Your honour, I was merely desecrating this statue in a non-criminal manner and it inadvertently ended up in the river".

Right. Some people's rationalisation hamster are in overdrive these days.

The wall at Heysel just fell over too.

 

[meltonblue]

Self defence against a statue. There's a leap.

"Your honour, I was merely desecrating this statue in a non-criminal manner and it inadvertently ended up in the river".

Right. Some people's rationalisation hamster are in overdrive these days.

The wall at Heysel just fell over too.

It’s a moronic leap that no-one would ever make. You’re missing my point though, it’s irrational to have a full opinion on this without properly considering the defences argument, which none of us fully have as we weren’t in court, or to listen to the jury’s deliberations. If the argument is there should be no defence then that undermines our legal processes even more.

 

[Blue Mist]

Every time a child is murdered people on here demand the death penalty is brought back.
This case highlights why it will never happen. Can you imagine if one person on a jury did not agree with hanging and persuaded the rest.

 

[bluethrunthru]

The only ones confused are Tory MP's who thought they had a slam dunk guilty here and are now butt hurt and want the whole system changed to one that does as they wish - Kazakhstan starting to look very democratic in comparison

 

[metalblue]

The jury came to the conclusion there was no crime, that pulling down a symbol of slavery was akin to this....

And they were right.

Besides, the British establishment has destroyed a lot more than statues to preserve the myth of colonialism, look up Operation Legacy and open your eyes.

Tell me then that what these people did was a crime

If you want to know why we're in decline and so hopelessly divided, look no further than our suffocating class system and our inability to come to terms with who we are.

"There is no future in England's dreaming"

The destruction of symbols of Nazism or the pulling down of Saddam Hussein’s and Colonel Gaddafi statues were broadly celebrated around the world as signs of liberty. The main difference between that and what happened in Bristol was the people behind the destruction had directly been impacted by those events/people. I suppose people might argue that the anger of the former group of people is more compelling as they were directly affected - however I am reminded of how I felt reading about the sinking of the City of Benares, I knew no one on board, wasn’t impacted by it, but the absolute rage I felt was very very real.

To the decision of the jury I’m inclined to agree with @Vic on this. Even if the jury could rely on leniency from the judge (which they can’t) any token sentence is still a criminal conviction with life long consequences. I think the jury returned the right verdict and I do not see it as open season on anything that someone might be offended by something - the majority of jurors aren’t daft and will be able to distinguish between genuine anger and a cheeky defence.

I hope the 4 use their new found fame for good going forward and don’t just disappear.

 

[metalblue]

The only ones confused are Tory MP's who thought they had a slam dunk guilty here and are now butt hurt and want the whole system changed to one that does as they wish - Kazakhstan starting to look very democratic in comparison

Fucking hell. Where angels fear to tread she goes in with both feet. What law needs clarifying?

They were deemed to have broken the law. Put on trail but acquitted based on evidence and testimony- seems like it’s working to me.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Fucking hell. Where angels fear to tread she goes in with both feet. What law needs clarifying?

They were deemed to have broken the law. Put on trail but acquitted based on evidence and testimony- seems like it’s working to me.

Yeah but not how they want it to work - I mean whats the point of a dictatorship if you can't dictate?

 

[stonerblue]

It's a bigger shame that when they made the statue a submarine, the trailing rope wasn't caught round the ankles of one of the perpetrators.

a bit like the slaves eh...