Russian invasion of Ukraine

redders said:
Our system is the same as it has always been. It is a fair system of democracy that is perfectly fair. Rich donors give donations to the Tory party and unions fund the Labour Party
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If the rich donors have close ties to foreign governments and the donations are contingent on government policy towards those countries that doesn’t bode well for our democracy.
 
west didsblue said:
If the rich donors have close ties to foreign governments and the donations are contingent on government policy towards those countries that doesn’t bode well for our democracy.
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I think you are over estimating the impact. They will be donors in return for business or citizenship status. I would eat my city hat if the Russians have any effect on our policies
 
redders said:
I think you are over estimating the impact. They will be donors in return for business or citizenship status. I would eat my city hat if the Russians have any effect on our policies
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I'm not so certain. Money talks.

In the USA, our former President, Donald Trump, was curiously in line with many positions favoring Russia - Trump questioned the need for NATO, pushed back on evidence that Russia supported his election, dismissed accusations that Russia had a bounty award for killing American soldiers, and so forth.
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In both the USA and the UK and indeed across likely all democracies, Russia has engaged in social media warfare - seeking to provoke maximum discord while simultaneously promoting its various positions.
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Russian interference in western politics isn't decisive - nonetheless, I think it's definitely had an impact.
 
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BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
I'm not so certain. Money talks.

In the USA, our former President, Donald Trump, was curiously in line with many positions favoring Russia - Trump questioned the need for NATO, pushed back on evidence that Russia supported his election, dismissed accusations that Russia had a bounty award for killing American soldiers, and so forth.
===
In both the USA and the UK and indeed across likely al democracies, Russia has engaged in social media warfare - seeking to provoke maximum discord while simultaneously promoting its various positions.
===
Russian interference in western politics isn't decisive - nonetheless, I think it's definitely had an impact.
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It's just become a lazy argument to blame anything on russian interference when things don't go the way we want in elections. This after making diminishing the Soviet Union/Russia a matter of policy for decades. I'm sure with good reason, but it is a little hypocritical to cry wolf about Russian interference. Same as encircling China with military bases and crying about Chinese expansionism. Trump was an isolationist and a bigot, possibly a useful one for Russia, but not working deliberately on Russia's behalf.
 
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
I'm not so certain. Money talks.

In the USA, our former President, Donald Trump, was curiously in line with many positions favoring Russia - Trump questioned the need for NATO, pushed back on evidence that Russia supported his election, dismissed accusations that Russia had a bounty award for killing American soldiers, and so forth.
===
In both the USA and the UK and indeed across likely al democracies, Russia has engaged in social media warfare - seeking to provoke maximum discord while simultaneously promoting its various positions.
===
Russian interference in western politics isn't decisive - nonetheless, I think it's definitely had an impact.
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Agreed.
It’s not about blaming everything on Russia but I think there’s little doubt there is an insidious influence from their activities.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
It's just become a lazy argument to blame anything on russian interference when things don't go the way we want in elections. This after making diminishing the Soviet Union/Russia a matter of policy for decades. I'm sure with good reason, but it is a little hypocritical to cry wolf about Russian interference. Same as encircling China with military bases and crying about Chinese expansionism. Trump was an isolationist and a bigot, possibly a useful one for Russia, but not working deliberately on Russia's behalf.
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First off - who's blaming Russia for election outcomes? They've attempted to interfere and to sow discord certainly... but it's unlikely that they've been so successful as to change an election outcome.

Secondly - you seem to have bought into the narrative that western democracies are bullying fascist regimes such as Russia and China. Poor, picked-upon Russia. And China. Well within Russia's rights to invade Crimea and now The Ukraine.

China - so you'd claim - has no choice but to reject international treaties and attempt to erect sand islands to expand its water territory. And as for all the industrial espionage going on in China - that's fair too. After all, the west engages in exactly the same sort of... well, no, we don't do that.

And so on.
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Democracies are loath to engage in war - it's simply not popular. Nationalist dictatorships however, love warfare - so long as they're winning.
 
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
First off - who's blaming Russia for election outcomes? They've attempted to interfere and to sow discord certainly... but it's unlikely that they've been so successful as to change an election outcome.

Secondly - you seem to have bought into the narrative that western democracies are bullying fascist regimes such as Russia and China. Poor, picked-upon Russia. And China. Well within Russia's rights to invade Crimea and now The Ukraine.

China - so you'd claim - has no choice but to reject international treaties and attempt to erect sand islands to expand its water territory. And as for all the industrial espionage going on in China - that's fair too. After all, the west engages in exactly the same sort of... well, no, we don't do that.

And so on.
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Democracies are loath to engage in war - it's simply not popular. Nationalist dictatorships however, love warfare - so long as they're winning.
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I'm not buying a narrative, that's why you find my views daft. If you examine historical facts over recent centuries, all these nations including our own have persued imperialist ambitions. Gun boat diplomacy nowadays just gets cloaked in virtuous rhetoric about delivering freedom/democracy, hunting terrorists or fighting the evils of international communism. Putin is a pretty terrible chap, but neither of our nation's are really in a position to lecture him on foreign policy, or indeed the selection of decent leaders.
 
west didsblue said:
If the rich donors have close ties to foreign governments and the donations are contingent on government policy towards those countries that doesn’t bode well for our democracy.
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Long established and unexplained connections between Johnson and Russian billionaires

www.theguardian.com

Morning after: Boris Johnson recovers from Lebedev’s exotic Italian party

Exclusive: New prime minister refuses to say if he abandoned security for 2018 night in billionaire’s castle
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
redders said:
It is funny how the working class people that I know who have done well, have done so from hard work. There is not some kind of glass ceiling or rich society that prevents people doing well. Equally we couldn't live in a freer society. Give me an example of someone being locked up or disappearing for legally disagreeing with the government?
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And I’m probably one of those people. We do live in a free society, to the main, but some of the governments plans seem to want to curb them.

However, when I was talking about our country becoming similar, it was more to do with a mentality that accepts what it is being told rather than investigating the detail.
 
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
Democracies are loath to engage in war - it's simply not popular.
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Yeah right. Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea and that's just the US.
France.... Algeria, Indochina
UK...going back a bit Iran, Suez, more recently anything the US gets up to.
And let us not forget WW1, France, Britain, Germany were all democracies.

Yeah right we don't like war it's unpopular.
 
Looks like my concerns about WW3 kicking off were unfounded. According to BBC News currently BBC1, the Queen has a cold, Covid restrictions are changing, the weather is a bit shit and we’ve won a gold in the ice bowling.
 
The Future’s Blue! said:
And I’m probably one of those people. We do live in a free society, to the main, but some of the governments plans seem to want to curb them.

However, when I was talking about our country becoming similar, it was more to do with a mentality that accepts what it is being told rather than investigating the detail.
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yeah I saw that with brexit when all the party leaders advised us to vote to stay in the EU and of course we did that... oh wait!
 
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