Russian invasion of Ukraine

Manchester33 said:
I don't see any real threat of Russia occupying Ukraine as a whole. The three regions they've either annexed or declared as independent states are the only areas with any semblance of a Pro-Russian agenda. Places like Kiev are pro-independence and it would be very difficult to manage that population of people. There might be a land war (probably ending with a pro-Moscow leader in Ukraine - which was the status quo a decade ago), but I see it as being incredibly unlikely that we'll see the entire country annexed or absorbed into Russia.
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I see it as a very real threat.

Russia has more than enough man power to take Ukraine pretty swiftly to be honest and there will be little Western intervention.
 
urban genie said:
Russian empire, the word soviet means a govenment council of a communist state.

What he wants to build isn't a new soviet union but a tzardom
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Exactly. He criticised the USSR for being a collection of states rather than one state. Of course not having satellite states does end up with your border always surrounded by NATO if that is his real concern.
 
Manchester33 said:
I don't see any real threat of Russia occupying Ukraine as a whole. The three regions they've either annexed or declared as independent states are the only areas with any semblance of a Pro-Russian agenda. Places like Kiev are pro-independence and it would be very difficult to manage that population of people. There might be a land war (probably ending with a pro-Moscow leader in Ukraine - which was the status quo a decade ago), but I see it as being incredibly unlikely that we'll see the entire country annexed or absorbed into Russia.
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There's a pretty good chance that the whole area east of the Dnieper river with the possible exclusion of the eastern suburbs of Kyiv will be invaded plus the area west of the river bordering the Black Sea.
 
Manchester_lalala said:
A lot of people take for granted what they read on Facebook. They all bought into the idea it was western propaganda and it was the US trying to provoke a war. You don’t put nearly 200k troops on the border of a country just for a laugh. Add in the fact that the intelligence agencies had evidence of an invasion and predicted everything that has happened so far.

Stop watching cryptic Facebook videos/photos you fucking balloons.
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People find it incredibly difficult nowadays to rationalise events vs the impact on politics and their brand of politics. I can't stand this current government but I would support anything they can do (beyond war) to help Ukraine.

There are people though who cannot support that because they categorically cannot support anything that this government does. If the government created a universal cure for cancer then certain people would have a problem with it.

This is the response of the ex leader of the opposition, you really couldn't make it up. I'm not sure what his idea of diplomacy would be when foreign troops are actively invading a country. The idea that this is about NATO or US aggression is just completely ridiculous. The irony is that the best mediator in this conflict would be Russia's biggest and closest ally physically which is Turkey and Turkey is a NATO country....

 
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west didsblue said:
There's a pretty good chance that the whole area east of the Dnieper river with the possible exclusion of the eastern suburbs of Kyiv will be invaded plus the area west of the river bordering the Black Sea.
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If you have a look at the comparitive size of the militaries, I don't really see how much of a threat Ukraine poses - just on sheer numbers alone.
 
inbetween said:
People find it incredibly difficult nowadays to rationalise events vs the impact on politics and their brand of politics. I can't stand this current government but I would support anything they can do (beyond war) to help Ukraine.

There are people though who cannot support that because they categorically cannot support anything that this government does. If the government created a universal cure for cancer then certain people would have a problem with it.

This is the response of the ex leader of the opposition, you really couldn't make it up. I'm not sure what his idea of diplomacy would be when foreign troops are actively invading a country. The idea that this is about NATO or US aggression is just completely ridiculous. The irony is that the best mediator in this conflict would be Russia's biggest and closest ally physically which is Turkey and Turkey is a NATO country....

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Well said Jeremy, this is EXACTLY my stance (except it should have been done a long time ago), I can’t stand Corbyn either.
 
inbetween said:
People find it incredibly difficult nowadays to rationalise events vs the impact on politics and their brand of politics. I can't stand this current government but I would support anything they can do (beyond war) to help Ukraine.

There are people though who cannot support that because they categorically cannot support anything that this government does. If the government created a universal cure for cancer then certain people would have a problem with it.

This is the response of the ex leader of the opposition, you really couldn't make it up. I'm not sure what his idea of diplomacy would be when foreign troops are actively invading a country. The idea that this is about NATO or US aggression is just completely ridiculous. The irony is that the best mediator in this conflict would be Russia's biggest and closest ally physically which is Turkey and Turkey is a NATO country....

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The problem with turkey is Erdoğan has invaded and illegally occupied northern syria for 3 years and gloats about the still ongoing occupation of Cyprus, plus his actions are responisible for displacement, torture, murder and rape of the kurds

he is smaller less scarier version putin in the dickhead stakes
 
bluesteel said:
Well said Jeremy, this is EXACTLY my stance (except it should have been done a long time ago), I can’t stand Corbyn either.
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Huh? Your stance has been to say the UK can’t say owt because of something we did wrong (in your eyes) in the past …. But now you’re saying but we can now talk and ask them to return to a peace agreement that, incidentally, was in place when they were amassing 10s of thousands of troops on the Ukrainian border?

You’re all over the place fella.
 
remember arthur mann said:
Alternative to the arm them to the hilt brigade. In the end everything comes down to diplomacy.
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The problem with diplomacy here is that the diplomatic thing that holds this together is the Minsk-2 agreements. These agreements have zero to do with NATO, they were brokered by European countries to establish peace and a ceasefire when separatists backed by Russia invaded eastern Ukraine in 2014.

Only one party is breaking those agreements so how can anyone blame the parties that aren't, especially NATO which has nothing to do with them?

Putin doesn't fear NATO, as of today he's under nuclear threat anyway. Submarine launched missiles could be sat right now in the Black Sea which could destroy Moscow in a few minutes, that threat is completely irrelevant.

Another thing is if he takes Ukraine for Russia then he'll suddenly have several more NATO countries on his doorstep.... What happens then? Does he march into Poland and Germany?

My point is basically, at what point do you blame Russia?
 
metalblue said:
You mean the bit above all the gas?

View attachment 37070
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That’s the logical thing to do for Russia, leave Kiev in a U shape and take the rest, it’d give Ukraine no border with the west, would give Russia access to Europe with existing pipelines for gas and fuck Ukraine financially.

Filling the land with Russians with the Ukrainians in Kiev, would prevent a long drawn out guerrilla war.

I assume they’d try and then broker peace and wait it out for a pro-Russian party to get in power, as the Ukrainians will probably be in poverty and at some point they’ll have had enough.

I think they’ll do this in stages, and claim it’s not illegal, the same “we’re recognising independent states and protecting them” bullshit, then saying they voted to join Russia and it’s their right.
 
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inbetween said:
The problem with diplomacy here is that the diplomatic thing that holds this together is the Minsk-2 agreements. These agreements have zero to do with NATO, they were brokered by European countries to establish peace and a ceasefire when separatists backed by Russia invaded eastern Ukraine in 2014.

Only one party is breaking those agreements so how can anyone blame the parties that aren't, especially NATO which has nothing to do with them?

Putin doesn't fear NATO, as of today he's under nuclear threat anyway. Submarine launched missiles could be sat right now in the Black Sea which could destroy Moscow in a few minutes, the threat is completely irrelevant.

Another thing is if he takes Ukraine for Russia then he'll suddenly have several more NATO countries on his doorstep.... What happens then? Does he march into Poland and Germany?

My point is basically, at what point do you blame Russia?
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Neither Russia or Ukraine have kept to the agreement since it was signed as it was very favourable to Russia so the Ukrainian government wouldn't implememnt most of the stipulations, now russia has invaded it has fully ripped it up.


The failing was in germany amd france who brokered it hastily to stop the fighting, it left not much leeway for a deal that would last.
 
bluesteel said:
That’s the logical thing to do for Russia, leave Kiev in a U shape and take the rest, it’d give Ukraine no border with the west, would give Russia access to Europe with existing pipelines for gas and fuck Ukraine financially.

Filling the land with Russians with the Ukrainians in Kiev, would prevent a long drawn out guer

I assume they’d try and then broker peace and wait it out for a pro-Russian party to get in power, as the Ukrainians will probably be in poverty and at some point they’ll have had enough.

I think they’ll do this in stages, and claim it’s not illegal, the same “we’re recognising independent states and protecting them” bullshit, then saying they voted to join Russia and it’s their right.
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That outcome wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest.
 
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