Russian invasion of Ukraine

[marco]

It's in Belarus......maybe that's why they've not picked it off?

Belarus have been far from indepedent here so cant see it makes much diference,they need to do it or there screwed

 

[west didsblue]

Feels to me that this action (invasion of Ukraine) could well be the end of Putin.

Access to social media is a pain in the ass to your modern dictator. He seems to be struggling to carry the people with him and there are undoubtedly people close to him who are more in touch with reality. They will gain confidence to act against Putin with every act of defiance. This defiance is coming from civilians, military and it seems even some oligarchs.

The world may turn out to be a slightly better place when this is all over, or maybe not. Incredible times.

It does feel like it's a once in a generation event, like 9/11 or the end of the cold war, that could change the world. The only question is whether it will be for the better or will be a total disaster for everyone.

 

[hello]

Four points mate.

1. Before suggesting a course of action, it's really good to have a plan as to what your are trying to achieve and how realistic it is. Having no idea where you're headed is never a great idea.

2. Downing arms and getting around a negotiation table is not simply surrendering.

3. Whilst the west continues to apply the severest of sanctions, it is not a question of Ukraine having to live under Russian rule. All sorts of compromises could be possible.

4. It's got bugger-all to do with "just to make us feel safe". You seem to have ignored that.

Take it you don’t worry much about sovereign territory, it might be a shock to some but it’s actually a pretty big deal in the realms of international law.
why would you expect Ukrainians to down arms whilst they are being invaded and not Russia?

 

[AlgarveBlu]

That's nonsense. Of course we support democracy. Not being prepared to have WW3 over a country which is not even in NATO does not mean we don't support democracy.

Where would this constant policy of direct non intervention end though? Russia have already threatened military action against Finland in the last few days if they join NATO and the Finns according to recent polls now have a majority for the first time wishing to join if it goes to a referendum. Russia just states it used to be part of the Russian empire and here we go again copy and paste.

 

[SPIDERBOY]

Belarus have been far from indepedent here so cant see it makes much diference,they need to do it or there screwed

I agree mate,on both counts.

 

[Grassland Blue]

In the Cold War days, nuclear conflict was sometimes summarised as 'MAD', an abbreviation of 'Mutually Assured Destruction'. In simple terms, forget the idea of taking cover because we're all fucked!

Taking cover in a favourite hostelry is my preferred option...

 

[Manc in London]

Not meaning to single you out, but replying with a more general point...

I understand everyone wants to see the weedy kid standing up to the school bully and giving him a bloody nose. Of course we want to see Putin turning around and pulling out.

But realistically, this is just not going to happen. Admirable - hugely admirable and courageous though the Ukrainian resistance may be - I honestly think it's futile. The longer it goes on, the more lives are lost, injuries sustained, buildings destroyed.

I am afraid I think there can be only one outcome here (sadly). No matter how well intentioned, I think the west's efforts to prop up the Ukrainian defence are ultimately just making it worse.

The longer it goes on, the more bitterness, anger and resentment will grow among the Ukrainian population. This, along with stories of bravery and strong leadership, will only fuel the resistance to, and the and rejection of, Russian control. It will make Russia controlling Ukraine near impossible. Whilst it is easy for a superpower to flatten a country, controlling it is a different matter.

No-one will 'win' this conflict. Not even Russia, regardless of the weapons they use. If anything is futile, it's Russia's efforts. In the long-term, Ukraine will be an independent country and Russia will be a pariah state.

 

[Bazzmand Show]

they need to go for that convoy, rich pickings and there for the taking,destroy that and its over certainly for a good while,,Get it done Ukraine

They don't have the capabilities to do it and it's not safe the the pilots.

It will have AA around it everywhere.

 

[Scottyboi]

Just tell them it's futile.

 

[Chippy_boy]

What you on about, I ain't a fucking politician or a military general it's just an opinion on a football forum lmao.

Downing arms right now is them surrending as Putin will move into the capital and any chance of continuing to fight back is gone.

You're scared like everyone is and would rather see Ukraine join Russia than risk your current life being impacted.

Calm down mate. I am only a footy supporter also.

I am not so scared as to be suggesting Ukraine down tools simply because it suits me, and I am a bit insulted you should suggest that.

But there is NO CHANCE of us intervening militarily in Ukraine beyond what we are doing already. That is the simple reality. And that being the case, I cannot see any outcome other than Ukraine being lost. I am seeing terrible things happening day by day and all I see is it getting worse and worse until inexorably, the Russians achieve their military objective.

Actually Putin's political objective, because that is what this is all about. Until Putin can say "I won, what a marvellous job I have done" there can be no end. Unless of course he is overthrown and from what I am reading, that is not on any short term horizon.

 

[JASR]

Where would this constant policy of direct non intervention end though? Russia have already threatened military action against Finland in the last few days if they join NATO and the Finns according to recent polls now have a majority for the first time wishing to join if it goes to a referendum. Russia just states it used to be part of the Russian empire and here we go again copy and paste.

selective ‘good times’ history at its best.

perhaps we should revert to all the lands from 120 years ago as that’s the time frame Putin seems to want to get back to. (Prior to Russo-Japan War where they lost multiple parts of the Far East, and prior to their humiliation in ww1)

it’s a win-win for European and uk. we get 1/4 of the world back, Europeans get their own large empires back.

its complete nonsense.

 

[AlgarveBlu]

Looks like the economic nuclear option may be deployed by the EU - I'm really liking this new look EU - will hurt a few of them badly though.

The European parliament is set to call for EU-wide restrictions on imports of Russian oil and gas to the bloc, as it urges even tougher sanctions aimed at the ‘strategic weakening’ of Russia’s economy and ability to wage war.

 

[MCFC1993]

Total energies follows BP and Shell, withdrawing funding for projects in Russia.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Where would this constant policy of direct non intervention end though? Russia have already threatened military action against Finland in the last few days if they join NATO and the Finns according to recent polls now have a majority for the first time wishing to join if it goes to a referendum. Russia just states it used to be part of the Russian empire and here we go again copy and paste.

I don't see it like that.

The west's HUGE fuck up was weeks and months ago with wishy-washy talk about sanctions and not spelling out really, really, really clearly to Putin what the consequences for invasion would be and just how bad it would be for him personally. Then when he made his initial proclamation of the annexation of parts of Ukraine, we imposed really limp sanctions. This gave him a big green light to carry on.

Since then, we have to a much greater extent "thrown the book at him". Although we can still do more. But I am sure the west's response is FAR more coordinated and severe than he was bargaining on. The problem is, having gone into Ukraine - which we really should have prevented in the first place - he now has nowhere to go. He cannot back down. That's why we've really fucked up. I seriously wonder if he regrets where he is right now - I suspect he does.

And I don't see him attempting the same with e.g. Finland or Sweden. The situation is entirely different. He tried to justify the action against Ukraine on the basis that it's natural, cultural home is Russia. And even so, he's seen such and enormous domestic backlash. He cannot possibly make the same claims over Finland or Sweden etc. He'd be completely mad to even try it, and contrary to the lazy narrative, he is not mad.

 

[Chippy_boy]

There only hung ho to you because they don't support your stance of there is no hope for Ukraine. Giving continued support to Ukraine retain its independence is a min for all democratic counties and they are no matter how perilous it seems

I didn't say we should stop backing them - I just said I thought it was ultimately going to be futile. I do think they should get around a table with Russia and somehow agree a cease fire however. But of course that is up to them.

 

[SWP's back]

Why is Ukraine applying to join the EU now? Surely that will just antagonise Putin?

Smh

 

[Blue Maverick]

they need to go for that convoy, rich pickings and there for the taking,destroy that and its over certainly for a good while,,Get it done Ukraine

If it was against NATO it would be carnage on that road but like the road to Basra in Gulf War 1

 

[nw42]

I didn't say we should stop backing them - I just said I thought it was ultimately going to be futile. I do think they should get around a table with Russia and somehow agree a cease fire however. But of course that is up to them.

They did that yesterday while Russia continued bombing them,, you can't negotiate with maniacs.

And if you didn't say we should stop backing them you definitely said we are making it worse.

 

[mosssideblue]

I didn't say we should stop backing them - I just said I thought it was ultimately going to be futile. I do think they should get around a table with Russia and somehow agree a cease fire however. But of course that is up to them.

I disagree it being futile. Russia will be brought to its knees and democracy will prevail in Ukraine

 

[RobMCFC]

The longer it goes on, the more bitterness, anger and resentment will grow among the Ukrainian population. This, along with stories of bravery and strong leadership, will only fuel the resistance to, and the and rejection of, Russian control. It will make Russia controlling Ukraine near impossible. Whilst it is easy for a superpower to flatten a country, controlling it is a different matter.

No-one will 'win' this conflict. Not even Russia, regardless of the weapons they use. If anything is futile, it's Russia's efforts. In the long-term, Ukraine will be an independent country and Russia will be a pariah state.

You are correct, Russia have zero chance of controlling Ukraine. You would have thought that Putin would have done his homework on how much support he'd be likely to get from the population he was trying to control.

There was an analyst on the radio the other day that said the west had 350,000 troops backed up by high-tech weaponry and air superiority in Iraq, but still they couldn't control things.