Russian invasion of Ukraine

Rascal said:
Last February the Russian Federation Communist party called for an end to the Nazification of the Donbass and for a united Anti Fascist front to confront the Neo Nazi's.
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And this February, Putin sent the Neo-Nazi Wagner division (6-10,000 strong) to assassinate Zelensky.


Hmm, I'm starting to think these Russians aren't entirely honest.
 
Rascal said:
I apologise, I thought they were part of the official army, still they are dangerous.

Last February the Russian Federation Communist party called for an end to the Nazification of the Donbass and for a united Anti Fascist front to confront the Neo Nazi's.
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The Russians are the Nazi’s. I presume they will now withdraw their forces immediately.
 
BobKowalski said:
Actually, no. For once this is a straightforward choice, which is why there has been such a unified, indeed emotional, reaction to this unwarranted and unprovoked aggression by Russia.

You can side with the good guys, or you can side with the bad guys. Just as with Nazi Germany, the choice is clear, so, which is it? Are you with the Ukrainians or the Russians on this? Do you support an military invasion by a fascist right wing regime on a neighbouring sovereign country or do you oppose it?
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I'd expect better of you Bob. No-one on here is supporting Putin's invasion.
 
BobKowalski said:
Actually, no. For once this is a straightforward choice, which is why there has been such a unified, indeed emotional, reaction to this unwarranted and unprovoked aggression by Russia.

You can side with the good guys, or you can side with the bad guys. Just as with Nazi Germany, the choice is clear, so, which is it? Are you with the Ukrainians or the Russians on this? Do you support an military invasion by a fascist right wing regime on a neighbouring sovereign country or do you oppose it?
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I support Ukraine.

Yet have misgivings as to how it came to this. It was avoidable, but as long as people toe the NATO is untouchable line then war is the result.

As you may recall from the EU debate, I supported an EU armed forces independent of NATO who could act as a counter balance, but the anti-EU armed sentiments in the debate were huge, have you considered why?
 
BobKowalski said:
Actually, no. For once this is a straightforward choice, which is why there has been such a unified, indeed emotional, reaction to this unwarranted and unprovoked aggression by Russia.

You can side with the good guys, or you can side with the bad guys. Just as with Nazi Germany, the choice is clear, so, which is it? Are you with the Ukrainians or the Russians on this? Do you support an military invasion by a fascist right wing regime on a neighbouring sovereign country or do you oppose it?
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I'm all for the idea we should question our own power structures, no one has forgotten the invented WOMD in Iraq.

However...

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Chippy_boy said:
They don't need to fly over it to do that.

I don't know why seemingly intelligent people are suggesting a no fly zone. First of all, all the western leaders have said no way that is happening, and second it is pretty obvious that you cannot enforce a no-fly zone without shooting down Russian planes, which Russia would immediately interpret as an act of war, and then we are into WW3.

The west has made it VERY clear that whilst of course we support Ukraine as much as we can, when it comes to fighting the Russians, they are on their own.

A comment was made on Question Time last night which I found thought-provoking: In normal circumstances a military power such as the US, would say it rules nothing out and reserves all rights to take whatever military response is appropriate / necessary. Even if there are no plans to deploy troops, tanks or aircraft, you don't usually rule it out, so that the deterrent is there.

But in this case the US has not done that, in fact it has done the very opposite, publicly ruling out military intervention in Ukraine. The person on QT suggested that presumably it was a deliberate choice to put that message out and it was done for a reason. I think it's pretty clear what the reason is: The west will try to avert WW3 at all costs and will not do anything which seriously risks that.
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How is sending supplies and weapons to Ukraine and enforcing sanctions not interpreted as an act or war by Russia ? surely they can perceive that as aggression
 
M18CTID said:
It's fucking bizarre what some of these people are coming out with. Not just those on the far left but the far right too. I've got one guy on FB who I would describe as far left or close to it. When he's not spouting his anti-West rhetoric, he's actually a sound bloke. Only ever met him once - on Boxing Day 2014 on the Megabus coming back from West Brom away when he was over from Melbourne for Christmas. Anyway, he's been at it for the past week or so and it's always a case of shoe-horning the West into everything and comments like "I know Putin is no angel BUT......" with references to things like how many bombs were dropped on Afghanistan during Obama's presidency, and how many missiles NATO has pointed directly at Russia. He also thinks Putin is of sound mind ffs! He's also fallen for the Putin Donbas genocide propaganda line amongst other things. For someone who claims to be against imperialism, he seems to be making an awful lot of excuses for Putin trying to revive Russian imperialism.

What's even more bizarre is that despite his politics, instead of criticising Trump when he got in as president, he actually found it quite amusing!
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Every ass has a hole. Social media is used now to say the most provocative narrative to gain attention. It’s not real.
 
BringBackSwales said:
It’s time we got serious with these cunts, we should get the mibs involved, get them to write a couple of new nursery rhymes , they’ve been terrorising us with them for years
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United and Liverpool are both currently fighting over who has the greater claim to the Ukraine crises. Expect a flurry of buzzwords and slogans. They love a tragedy. It’s good for the brand.
 
Chippy_boy said:
They don't need to fly over it to do that.

I don't know why seemingly intelligent people are suggesting a no fly zone. First of all, all the western leaders have said no way that is happening, and second it is pretty obvious that you cannot enforce a no-fly zone without shooting down Russian planes, which Russia would immediately interpret as an act of war, and then we are into WW3.

The west has made it VERY clear that whilst of course we support Ukraine as much as we can, when it comes to fighting the Russians, they are on their own.

A comment was made on Question Time last night which I found thought-provoking: In normal circumstances a military power such as the US, would say it rules nothing out and reserves all rights to take whatever military response is appropriate / necessary. Even if there are no plans to deploy troops, tanks or aircraft, you don't usually rule it out, so that the deterrent is there.

But in this case the US has not done that, in fact it has done the very opposite, publicly ruling out military intervention in Ukraine. The person on QT suggested that presumably it was a deliberate choice to put that message out and it was done for a reason. I think it's pretty clear what the reason is: The west will try to avert WW3 at all costs and will not do anything which seriously risks that.
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The reasons for this are pretty obvious, Russia can't win vs any intervention from the west so if it happened then there's a chance he'd go nuclear. That's probably what is keeping them going and it's their only leverage. The US can say it won't intervene militarily but that's because it doesn't need to as the whole world has already intervened.

The sanctions on Russia are the most severe ever seen on a country and so far they've been effective but the problem is they'll be hurting the Russian people more than Putin. I actually don't think Putin is even bothered about the west or war, what he's really worried about is what's going to happen at home.

That's probably why they're so aggressively using propaganda and suppressing protests. The reality is though we are laying Moscow to siege without firing a single bullet, something has to give from that eventually and my only worry is how long it'll take and what the eventual give will involve.
 
Rascal said:
Last February the Russian Federation Communist party called for an end to the Nazification of the Donbass and for a united Anti Fascist front to confront the Neo Nazi's.
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Indeed, there are many people in Russia repeating the propaganda of the regime. I presume that was your point, given that Putin has an openly fascist agenda to reunite the Slavic people through lethal force?
 
Cheesy said:
The political spectrum is not a straight line, it's more of a horseshoe or even a circle. The far left and far right have far more in common than they would like to admit.
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Cheesy, that's the politics of totalitarianism, that the far right and the far left end up being the same. For hitler, read stalin. Both with repressive, absolute police states, brutally liquidating an dissent. Bellicose aggression to expand their "living space" or sphere of influence. Shiny jackboots and shiny uniforms, people conditioned to think the same. Demonising and dehumanising your enemies, it's state oppression 1-0-1.

Our Vladimir would no doubt have been described by Le Care as a Karla trained Moscow Centre hood - KGB old skool. Yeltsin had him running Federal Security Bureau (FSB) who provide the same friendly secret police/ espionage/counter-espoinage service as their predecessors. He was based in East Germany when the Wall came down and it incensed him when the USSR collapsed.

Some people became mega rich with the privatisation of Russian state industries, though oddly enough not the Russian people themselves. Putin arrested and imprisoned the richest oligarch and the others fell into line. He and other states use all forms of media to divide opinion, forment dissent and promote his ideals.

Don't think he is or ever was a diehard communist. Instead over the last 20 years he's outed himself as ultra nationalist, fascistic actually. He harks back to the glory days of Peter the Great. FFS.

I think our entire political system is tainted by Russian money. You use money to pay for goods and services. To buy influence. Nothing's for nothing. We are going need widespread political reform here. EU actions have shamed us by our mealy mouthed response to refugees and even aid.

But it all goes back to one thing: Putin who is a war criminal. We've been losing our shit on here over the N word. Who needs nukes when you've got cluster bombs and thermobaric weapons?

Putin is a ****. A cunts **** who doesn't give a shot about his own people let alone the Ukrainians or Syrians that he's helping to bomb.

If you're reading this, Vladimir, I reckon those calendars of you riding bareback, posing with you shirt off, doing rugged manly things, they're shit. Ironically for someone so anti gay, it makes you look a bit ......gay! ;-)


PS I think you are a thundercunt and a twat banana of the highest order, you dwarf twat.
 
Latest from Putin (on the BBC):-

President Putin has warned those opposing Russia's actions in Ukraine "not to exacerbate the situation" by imposing more restrictions on his country.

The Russian president was speaking at a government meeting broadcast on the state-controlled Rossiya 24 news channel.

"We have no ill intentions against our neighbours," Putin claims.

Of course, I guess this is all for the consumption of the Russian viewers, many of the older guard who are not aware that he is bombing the s*** out of those neighbours.
 
Rascal said:
I support Ukraine.

Yet have misgivings as to how it came to this. It was avoidable, but as long as people toe the NATO is untouchable line then war is the result.

As you may recall from the EU debate, I supported an EU armed forces independent of NATO who could act as a counter balance, but the anti-EU armed sentiments in the debate were huge, have you considered why?
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NATO isn’t untouchable, no organisation is exempt from criticism, but NATO didn’t make Putin invade Ukraine. Ukraine isn’t in NATO. Ukraine was never getting into NATO. One unprovoked invasion later and every fucker is applying to join NATO and the EU. Is that NATO’s fault? Or the West?

Refugees streaming out of Ukraine are heading in one direction - into a NATO country. Ever wonder why everyone flees in one direction? Wonder why everyone wants what we have? NATO and the EU are seen as guarantees of security and prosperity - and that is something a nationalist fascist like Putin cannot stand.

If Macron is re-elected in France there will be a joint push with Germany for an EU defence force, something I have long supported and even more so now. The actions of Russia will pressure Europe into greater cooperation, and the US will (currently) support it. Any European force will be part of NATO. We see how countries view membership of either NATO or the EU as a defence against military aggression and I suspect the two entities will become more fused over the next decade.
 
RobMCFC said:
Latest from Putin (on the BBC):-

President Putin has warned those opposing Russia's actions in Ukraine "not to exacerbate the situation" by imposing more restrictions on his country.

The Russian president was speaking at a government meeting broadcast on the state-controlled Rossiya 24 news channel.

"We have no ill intentions against our neighbours," Putin claims.

Of course, I guess this is all for the consumption of the Russian viewers, many of the older guard who are not aware that he is bombing the s*** out of those neighbours.
Click to expand...

Proof the sanctions are biting.
 
RobMCFC said:
Latest from Putin (on the BBC):-

...

"We have no ill intentions against our neighbours," Putin claims.

Of course, I guess this is all for the consumption of the Russian viewers, many of the older guard who are not aware that he is bombing the s*** out of those neighbours.
Click to expand...

“Except Ukraine. Or Belarus. Or Georgia...yes, except for those three countries...oh hang on, Moldova...ok got it. We have no ill intentions against our neighbours...hang on...what’s that? Oh, yeah. Chechnya. Didn‘t we liquidate them? Thought so. I can cross them off the list then? Got it.”
 
inbetween said:
The reasons for this are pretty obvious, Russia can't win vs any intervention from the west so if it happened then there's a chance he'd go nuclear. That's probably what is keeping them going and it's their only leverage. The US can say it won't intervene militarily but that's because it doesn't need to as the whole world has already intervened.

The sanctions on Russia are the most severe ever seen on a country and so far they've been effective but the problem is they'll be hurting the Russian people more than Putin. I actually don't think Putin is even bothered about the west or war, what he's really worried about is what's going to happen at home.

That's probably why they're so aggressively using propaganda and suppressing protests. The reality is though we are laying Moscow to siege without firing a single bullet, something has to give from that eventually and my only worry is how long it'll take and what the eventual give will involve.
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Honestly I don't think Putin gives a shit about public opinion back home - which incidentally is on his side, and which may very likely be even more in favour as he controls the media and when he can start to proclaim victories.

It was depressing to hear the Russian guy on QT last night saying Putin will be delighted at the Oligarchs having their money taken off them and that there was zero chance of him being ousted domestically.
 
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