Today's shooting in America thread

[ChicagoBlue]

The difference being that normal countries get rid of laws that become stupid through the passage of time.

Americans want to spend the rest of eternity living life according to 1776.

Patently false and idiotically stated.
Check your dates, too, smart arse!
Bravo.

 

[SWP's back]

Do you feel the same way about people with access to knives and cars?

You cite some wild, extremely low statistical “maybe” as a reason for potentially cutting large swaths of society out of your life, as if gun ownership is some kind of moral and physical threat test.

My neighbors have no idea I have firearms, just as I have no idea if they do or not. It’s a private matter that I only share here to provide some contextual balance to the extreme anti-gun sentiment expressed here.

You are completely entitled to your views, no matter how extreme and unenforceable they may be. They don’t concern or upset me.

Most of my comments on this subject are documented, if often misunderstood:

. I am strongly in favor of strong gun control laws
. Outside of this Forum there are only a small handful of people who know I am even a gun owner, let alone have multiple firearms.
. I strongly advocate safe ownership, including separating guns from ammo and locking up both, etc…
. I’m not a gun nut and know little about guns, other than the ones I own, which are all very similar.
. I practice how to use them, so that I have mastery of the firearms and exercise responsible ownership.
. I am not an advocate of 2A, but I am enough of a realist to understand it’s not changing anytime soon. For me, that’s the starting reality for any discussion of American gun culture.
. I think it’s sadly amusing to read most people’s uneducated (as in unrealistic) view of American gun culture and 2A, whilst expected to kowtow to their moral superiority.

We can agree to disagree, but I can assure you, other people have no reason to worry about my firearms…unless they violate my family’s safe space in a threatening manner.

I do cut out over 300m from my social circle, I refuse to live in America despite several very nice job offers.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

The fact you can't really get away from is that people don't regularly snap and go on mass knife attacks in countries without guns. There's no UK knife version of Sandy Hook or Virginia Tech. There's no version of it in countries with worse mental healthcare than the USA either.

I don’t need to “get away from” it, because I don’t need to prove “regularity” given the discussion.

I will readily admit there are few “spree killings” using weapons other than the killing efficiency of the firearm.

And?

I used the FACT (as statistically detailed in the research I presented) that 54% of gun deaths are suicides, which is why I mentioned the dearth of mental illness resources available to many troubled individuals.

Worse healthcare, mental or otherwise, elsewhere is irrelevant to that discussion.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

I do cut out over 300m from my social circle, I refuse to live in America despite several very nice job offers.

I’m glad you have such excellent options. Your fear of the gun is clearly paralyzing. I hope it improves if you’re ever sent to the USA for work.

Choice is wonderful. I hope the other 6.7 billion in your social circle fulfill your needs.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

You can choose to ignore reality, but out here in the real world I think you’ll find many of your personal freedoms come from a document from about 807 years ago!

For example:

The Magna Carta, was signed on 15 June 1215, over 800 years ago. Many of its 63 clauses have disappeared, but some remain and it established the rule of law.

Clause 39 stated:

‘No free man shall be seized or imprisoned , or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled, or deprived of his standing in any way, nor will we proceed with force against him, or send others to do so, except by the lawful judgement of his equals or by the law of the land.’

Clause 40 stated:

‘To no-one will we sell, to no-one will we deny or delay, right or justice.’

Clauses 39 and 40 remain on the statute book. The fundamental principle that nobody, not even the King, is above the law, underpins English law today.

Must be wrong! Too old to be relevant or have meaning in modern society, right?!

A fine bit of whataboutery bringing Magna Carta into the discussion. Clause 39 and 40 are fundamental principles of our justice system are as relevant today as they were the day they were written.

This however was written when even the most highly trained musket bearer could manage at best 4 crudely aimed shots per minute.

'A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed'.

I'd be very surprised if you are a member of a well regulated militia.

 

[SWP's back]

Canada has more fire-arms per person than the US, and a tiny fraction of gun-crime. An arguement/decision could be made to arm everyone,not one i would make, but one the US public might. Talk of banning guns is to ignore the reality that it will never happen , hard drugs are banned yet are more available now than ever. Banning automatic weapons that are used in mass shootings is another dead-end, simply because there are millions already out there. The US is riven by race, by ideology-driven economics, by vast wealth versus poverty, politically aligned mass media fanning the flames of hatred. More mass shootings are likelier than a reduction, in the forseeable future. Years ago the perps were often a "loner" with a grudge against society, they still exist but outright racially driven organised militias have proliferated, united by the trump propaganda that sees votes in racial hatred.

Incorrect

Fact-checking Michael Moore: Does Canada have more guns per capita than the US? - National | Globalnews.ca

The 'Bowling For Columbine' director reacted on Facebook to the latest mass shooting in the U.S. But did the outspoken filmmaker get his facts right?

globalnews.ca

31 per 100 people in Canada

89 per 100 people in US

 

[ChicagoBlue]

You guys are like moths to a flame!

It is so precious to watch a small handful of supposedly intelligent educated men twist yourselves in knots trying to change a foundational settled law of a country you don’t live in, or refuse to live in!

I’m not sure which part of “nobody gives a fuck about your tortured arguments” (even the ones I might agree with!) you guys don’t understand, but your exercise of perceived moral superiority is an excellent sideshow to the main event!

Keep going! I’m sure it’ll make a big difference to everyone in America.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

A fine bit of whataboutery bringing Magna Carta into the discussion. Clause 39 and 40 are fundamental principles of our justice system are as relevant today as they were the day they were written.

This however was written when even the most highly trained musket bearer could manage at best 4 crudely aimed shots per minute.

'A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed'.

I'd be very surprised if you are a member of a well regulated militia.

You don’t understand what you are saying, let alone what you are reading. In America, they have ACTUAL AMERICAN JUDGES who interpret laws for us, as opposed to Brits who like to post on a soccer Forum over breakfast.

Crazy system, I know, but what can I say?!

And, much as you believe 2A doesn’t apply, many conservatives believe it is more relevant today than ever. Go figure!

 

[SWP's back]

You can choose to ignore reality, but out here in the real world I think you’ll find many of your personal freedoms come from a document from about 807 years ago!

For example:

The Magna Carta, was signed on 15 June 1215, over 800 years ago. Many of its 63 clauses have disappeared, but some remain and it established the rule of law.

Clause 39 stated:

‘No free man shall be seized or imprisoned , or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled, or deprived of his standing in any way, nor will we proceed with force against him, or send others to do so, except by the lawful judgement of his equals or by the law of the land.’

Clause 40 stated:

‘To no-one will we sell, to no-one will we deny or delay, right or justice.’

Clauses 39 and 40 remain on the statute book. The fundamental principle that nobody, not even the King, is above the law, underpins English law today.

Must be wrong! Too old to be relevant or have meaning in modern society, right?!

That’s the weakest argument you have ever made on this forum mate. 230 years ago, it took roughly 46 seconds for a trained minuteman to reload his rifle. The idea of an AR15 wasn’t remotely possible.

You accept that a US citizen can’t own a fully functioning tank or an RPG so you accept there’s a limit to the 2A.

 

[DrBlueBob]

The difference is knives and cars are not internalised for the vast majority of people as weapons. Hence why they're not used that way by the vast vast majority. Guns have one purpose for basically everyone. To kill things. I don't think I've ever looked at a car and thought 'mate that's a cool killing machine you've got there!'. Knives of course have that side too, but most of us get the big knife out in the kitchen just to cut up some chicken or sumat during food prep and then it goes back in a drawer. It isn't associated with murder and killing for the vast majority of people, for very obvious reasons. Even then, I'm fucking relieved I live in a country where knives are the main weapon as opposed to guns. Damn sight harder for people to go on a spree with a knife isn't it!

Get a magnetic knife rack, that way you won't blunt your killing instruments by having them rattle around in a drawer.