US Politics Thread

[FogBlueInSanFran]

The extremes on both ends of the political spectrum have more in common with each other than they have with the more moderate people on each side. They hate centrists because we have supposedly sold out on our principles by being pragmatic and recognising that realpolitik is the only way to deliver change albeit incrementally, because there’s never going to be enough people embracing ideological fantasies on either end on the spectrum who want to smash the system and indulge in their wet dream vision of the world that only they want.

Precisely. Politics is a circle not a spectrum. Extreme ideology whether right or left ends up in exactly the same place: totalitarianism. Fealty to an individual. Always.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

There is definitely some truth to that.

But I wouldn’t say that the American far-right has more in common with American far-left than it does the “centre-right” at this moment in time. In fact, the “centre-right” is much more like the “good Germans” in the 1930s: attempting to act appalled and disconnected from the ever escalating aggression and harm being perpetrated by their far-right brethren, without actually doing anything to stop it (because some fear the consequences but many simply secretly support what is happening).

I disagree with this. The “center-right” (spelled my way :)) has evaporated — some of it is fighting this, most has been subsumed by the far right for self-protection or out of ambition. Trump is a litmus test. Look at the number of Republicans who supported impeachment. A very small subset, and nearly all in the House who did will lose their jobs in November.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

I listened to an interesting discussion after the last hearing that had M Cohen and others on debating just this.

Cohen was saying that he doesn't think they will go after Trump as they know there will be nothing directly tying Trump to any of this. Lots of emails and messages etc to create a paper trail but none will come from Trump directly. And in the absence of direct physical evidence they wont do it.

But then some of the other panellists were suggesting that these hearings are in part designed to pressure the DoJ to act. To make it incredibly difficult not to put them on trial. And once you commit then you can get people to flip and there are lots currently willing to testify all you need is 1 to plead guilty and then its very hard for a jury to not convict the rest. At that point its more about who goes down not if / when people go down.

I'm still of the view he will get away with it but they are clearly doing a very good job of applying maximum pressure, and the fight is on so many fronts that there could easily be a big break.

I care much more that he either cannot run again, or this plus all else damages him enough that he cannot win again. Sure I’d like to see him punished if convicted, and his cronies will probably be, ala Watergate. But I will take the destruction of his ability to re-achieve power.

 

[SebastianBlue]

I disagree with this. The “center-right” (spelled my way :)) has evaporated — some of it is fighting this, most has been subsumed by the far right for self-protection or out of ambition. Trump is a litmus test. Look at the number of Republicans who supported impeachment. A very small subset, and nearly all in the House who did will lose their jobs in November.

I don’t think it is evaporated at all. Reduced, perhaps, but to say the centre-right no longer exists is an exceedingly bold statement.

I think there is plenty of evidence, even in this thread, to support my conclusion that many are feigning disgust and bewilderment, without doing much of anything to stop the exploits of the far-right.

There’s an argument to be made that the same could be said of the centre-left. But, as I pointed out to Bigga, that is not a point that can be used to say “see, everyone is just as bad as the far-right”.

That stance — that the American far-left is just as bad as the American far-right — is a device intentionally conceived and deployed by the far-right for centuries.

It allows for “there are no good guys” thinking that has so often enabled far-right ascension to power.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

I don’t think it is evaporated at all. Reduced, perhaps, but to say the centre-right no longer exists is an exceedingly bold statement.

I think there is plenty of evidence, even in this thread, to support my conclusion that many are feigning disgust and bewilderment, without doing much of anything to stop the exploits of the far-right.

Okay. Well, who is a center-right politician in the US who is doing nothing? No “center-right” politician who is “feigning disgust” is a center-right politician by definition. If you are a actually disgusted and call it out, you are out of work. If you do not call it out you are now aligned with the far-right, and if you do you are homeless politically.

 

[buckshot]

The GOP isn't going to want him nominated -- they want to hell and gone with him. He's a necessary evil at the moment. But all this damage with effectively no way for him to respond weakens him. Who knows what else will come out in the next two-plus years? It won't be refutation nor will he ever do anything that can claw back this series of events. He's absolutely toast -- it's just the timing of when he becomes toast. Within the party, only his toadiest, dumbest, most disgusting lackeys want him running again -- which is why GOP leadership is hoping via gerrymandering, incumbency, a bad-look-for-Biden economy, Dems' own internal struggles and a right-wing activist SC, the "platform" is enough to keep the cult members supporting the next generation rather than withering away. You might be right that it won't be enough and God I hope you are. But make no mistake -- the party power brokers themselves want him to be Jesus -- venerated as a savio(u)r, but nailed up on that cross dead as a doornail. They have to wean the cult off of him specifically and get them hooked on the idea and ideals of him.

Things are looking good in some senate races so far, millions of women are more motivated than they've been in 50 years and we still have at least two more hearings and a final report from the 1/6 committee. I have to believe the Democrats will expand their majority, codify abortion rights, pass voting rights and provide a better healthcare plan. At that point the GQP will be DOA in 2024. Nobody is going to want to go back to the insanity of Cheeto Jesus.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Okay. Well, who is a center-right politician in the US who is doing nothing? No “center-right” politician who is “feigning disgust” is a center-right politician by definition. If you are a actually disgusted and call it out, you are out of work. If you do not call it out you are now aligned with the far-right, and if you do you are homeless politically.

If I understand you correctly, you classify all republicans (that still identify as republicans, whether in office or citizens) as far-right at this point?

 

[SebastianBlue]

The Republican master plan: forcing the creation of more exploitable people that will be packed in to “changing weather mitigation” economic development zones and rely on their subscription “Christ Provides” mostly clean air and water service to survive.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

The 1/6 hearings have painted a clear picture of a guilty-as-hell Trump attempting to foment insurrection.

The million dollar question is this: Will the DOJ level charges against Trump?

IMO - probably not. Roughly 1/2 of the USA don't believe that the hearings are legitimate. Unless there's irrefutable, ironclad evidence of wrongdoing - e.g., Trump on video footage saying and doing the things he's purported to have said and done - I think that the DOJ won't level charges. No jury agreed upon by both prosecution and defense would ever convict him absent such evidence.

You recon 1/2 of the USA don't think the hearings are legitimate? I think it's probably way less.

As for ironclad evidence there are countless mobile phone records that paint a pretty damning picture for certain people, Meadows in particular. Probably more than enough to put them in jail. It just depends now if those individuals are prepared to cut deals to put the biggest fish in the frame.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Nothing to say that it can't be topped up though.

A pardon removes the right top plead the 5th.