Discussing religion with kids

Both our kids went to a RC school. Neither have been to church since, neither have any religious thoughts as far as I’m aware. Let them come to their own conclusions is my motto - it seems to have worked.
 
Give him a shroom and he can see that we are one collective consciousness living a human experience intent on raising our vibrational frequencies to the 5th dimension. Whilst fighting an invisible intergalactic war to keep the planets vibrational level low.


Makes more sense that a white dude in the Middle East called Jesus.
 
mat said:
Give him a shroom and he can see that we are one collective consciousness living a human experience intent on raising our vibrational frequencies to the 5th dimension. Whilst fighting an invisible intergalactic war to keep the planets vibrational level low.


Makes more sense that a white dude in the Middle East called Jesus.
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This is the kind of top parenting advice you just don’t get on mumsnet.
 
I really object to the fact that RE is taught in schools when that time could be dedicated to much more important subjects.

One lesson is all they need. Should take no more than a few seconds...

"There's lots of different religions. Believe in what you want to believe and let others believe in what they want to believe."

Done.
 
Goaters said:
So my 5 year old at school is starting to be taught religion and specifically Christianity. So with this it obviously raises questions for me - an atheist - the sort of response I should provide. He is asking to pray before bed and wants to visit church etc, which obviously I can't object to but equally am fairly uncomfortable with.

An emphasis on critical thinking though is also important. If you raise your children to be skeptical as a general rule, it shouldn't be necessary to go out of your way to have them treat religious claims skeptically. They should end up doing that on their own anyway. Skepticism and critical thinking are attitudes which should be cultivated across a broad range of topics, but again age comes in to this.

So, for parents who are not religious how do you broach the subject? Do you say you don't believe or just go along with it until your child comes to a certain age where he can more form his own opinions?
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I’d send him to the Spaniards for an Inquisition mate!


My Father - an atheist - sent me to a CofE primary school but I didn’t get all that interested in it and by about eight years old I pretty much didn’t believe a word of it and by the time I left at eleven I think I was a convinced atheist.

I do sometimes wonder whether actually going and listening to those stories in class and assemblies and at the church next door to the school made me think ‘well, that didn’t happen!’ quicker than if I hadn’t gone to a CofE school.
 
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Cheesy said:
I really object to the fact that RE is taught in schools when that time could be dedicated to much more important subjects.

One lesson is all they need. Should take no more than a few seconds...

"There's lots of different religions. Believe in what you want to believe and let others believe in what they want to believe."

Done.
Click to expand...
I work in education and, for me, the four most important subjects are English, Maths, PE and Food.

The two latter ones are given next to no importance really. By Year 10 you don’t have to do either of them anymore (even though PE is still there until the end of Year 11, the amount of lessons that are ditched so kids can catch up with coursework or revision for other lessons, some don’t really put a PE kit on after Year 9).

But for fitness and health, extensive education in both for future life fitness and health (and I’m not taking about learning how to hit a hickey ball correctly, I’m talking about proper classroom lessons where you learn about training and the body), knowing how train to stay fit and healthy, knowing how to cook to stay healthy with variety of nutrients and flavours for enjoyment of healthy food… they should be right up there.

RE is just about the most unimportant thing you can learn in school. The history of religions is interesting but bloody fantasy stories being taught as if they really happened - nah!
 
mexico1970 said:
If the school hadn't told him there was a thing called churches he would never have known, same goes for Mosques, Synagogues etc.

IMHO religion should be kept out of ALL schools.
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As a retired teacher of Religious Studies, I am obviously going to disagree. But not for the reasons that you might think.

First of all - though I am only referring here to teaching at the secondary rather than primary level - quite a number of colleagues I worked with were atheists who just happened to be fascinated with religion as a social phenomenon or were attracted to the philosophical and ethical aspects of the subject. So there is not much danger of indoctrination.

Secondly, one of my own university teachers, John Bowker, wrote in the preface to one of the earliest GCSE textbooks that religion was worth learning about because of all the evil that had been perpetrated in the name of it. That’s a pretty good justification in my view.

Thirdly, the subject does tend to get taught in a manner that encourages critical thinking and intelligent scepticism. A quick look at any GCSE or A level syllabus will reveal that. Often, in the terminal GCSE examination itself, the most marks are awarded for questions in which the candidate has to critically evaluate statements such as ‘There are no convincing reasons to believe in God’, or ‘People who claim to have religious experiences are hallucinating’, or ‘There is no good evidence that we survive death.’

Fourthly, although secularisation is happening in some places, the world is still, rather unfortunately in my view, as furiously religious as it ever was in others. So from that point of view it can’t really be avoided.

Plus, people do seem to still yearn for what might be abstractly referred to as the transcendent, some kind of realm beyond the ego, even if they only achieve that through taking drugs, watching City humiliate United, or going to an event like Glastonbury.

Am currently reading Nick Cave and Sean O’Hagan’s book Faith, Hope and Carnage, in which Cave admits that he might have devoted a lot of energy to reflecting on a being that does not exist, but that faith (tempered by a lot of doubt) got him through the death of his son, still sustains him and continues to inspire his songwriting.

And Christopher Hitchens actually said something similar before he died, admitting, ‘I’m a materialist…yet there is something beyond the material or not entirely consistent with it, what you would call the Numinous, the Transcendent, or at best the Ecstatic…It’s in certain music, landscape, certain creative work; without this we really would merely be primates.’

Should add that I am in no position to make much sense of what Cave and Hitchens are on about as I have never had an experience of anything like that, though I do find music, art and literature to be transporting in a non-mystical sense.

Fifthly, doing an A Level in Religious Studies is one of the best ways to be introduced to atheistic thinking these days, namely, that of luminaries such as the wonderful David Hume, Bertrand Russell, AJ Ayer, Jeremy Bentham, JL Mackie and, of course, Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens.

In fact, one of the best and most resolutely sceptical philosophers around at the present time is a guy called Stephen Law, who often does workshops for sixth-formers. He is actually the author of a book called ‘Believing Bullshit’ which I once contemplated making one of the official textbooks for my A Level students, as the idea of their parents and fellow pupils stumbling across them reading it had a certain subversive appeal. Unfortunately, there wasn’t quite enough overlap between the content of the book and the syllabus that I was teaching at the time to justify that decision. But anyway, here he is in action:



I used to show that to my Year 9’s.

Finally, if Religious Studies was removed from the curriculum, there is a danger that the extremist and sometimes barking mad beliefs that some kids get from home would go unchallenged and would be left to incubate.

There is also a danger that - at A level - if they are studying History, English Literature, Art or even Economics, that a lack of knowledge of religion might leave them a bit of a disadvantage.

For example, Adam Smith’s The Wealth of Nations is as much a work of theology as it is of economics, something that would have been immediately apparent to its first readers but is scarcely appreciated now.

Having said that though, it wouldn’t bother me if the name of the subject was changed to ‘Philosophy’ or ‘World Views.’

As far as primary school kids are concerned, I don’t see any reason why they can’t be introduced to a bit of critical thinking even at that age, as there are books and courses designed to specifically do just that. See here:

P4C in the UK

P4C in the UK
www.philosophy-foundation.org www.philosophy-foundation.org

Pete Worley’s publications are really good for that as they are aimed at kids from about 5 upwards.

Anyway, this post is far too long. So will leave it there. Off to cook dinner and listen to Ghosteen again.
 
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Goaters said:
So my 5 year old at school is starting to be taught religion and specifically Christianity. So with this it obviously raises questions for me - an atheist - the sort of response I should provide. He is asking to pray before bed and wants to visit church etc, which obviously I can't object to but equally am fairly uncomfortable with.

An emphasis on critical thinking though is also important. If you raise your children to be skeptical as a general rule, it shouldn't be necessary to go out of your way to have them treat religious claims skeptically. They should end up doing that on their own anyway. Skepticism and critical thinking are attitudes which should be cultivated across a broad range of topics, but again age comes in to this.

So, for parents who are not religious how do you broach the subject? Do you say you don't believe or just go along with it until your child comes to a certain age where he can more form his own opinions?
Click to expand...
If this is a non church state school make a formal complaint.
They are forbidden from pushing any one faith.
You can withdraw your child from RE and assemblies if you wish by right.
 
ZenHalfTimeCrock said:
As a retired teacher of Religious Studies, I am obviously going to disagree. But not for the reasons that you might think.

First of all - though I am only referring here to teaching at the secondary rather than primary level - quite a number of colleagues I worked with were atheists who just happened to be fascinated with religion as a social phenomenon or were attracted to the philosophical and ethical aspects of the subject. So there is not much danger of indoctrination.

Secondly, one of my own university teachers, John Bowker, wrote in the preface to one of the earliest GCSE textbooks that religion was worth learning about because of all the evil that had been perpetrated in the name of it. That’s a pretty good justification in my view.

Thirdly, the subject does tend to get taught in a manner that encourages critical thinking and intelligent scepticism. A quick look at any GCSE or A level syllabus will reveal that. Often, in the terminal GCSE examination itself, the most marks are awarded for questions in which the candidate has to critically evaluate statements such as ‘There are no convincing reasons to believe in God’, or ‘People who claim to have religious experiences are hallucinating’, or ‘There is no good evidence that we survive death.’

Fourthly, although secularisation is happening in some places, the world is still, rather unfortunately in my view, as furiously religious as it ever was in others. So from that point of view it can’t really be avoided.

Plus, people do seem to still yearn for what might be abstractly referred to as the transcendent, some kind of realm beyond the ego, even if they only achieve that through taking drugs, watching City humiliate United, or going to an event like Glastonbury.

Am currently reading Nick Cave and Sean O’Hagan’s book Faith, Hope and Carnage, in which Cave admits that he might have devoted a lot of energy to reflecting on a being that does not exist, but that faith (tempered by a lot of doubt) got him through the death of his son, still sustains him and continues to inspire his songwriting.

And Christopher Hitchens actually said something similar before he died, admitting, ‘I’m a materialist…yet there is something beyond the material or not entirely consistent with it, what you would call the Numinous, the Transcendent, or at best the Ecstatic…It’s in certain music, landscape, certain creative work; without this we really would merely be primates.’

Should add that I am in no position to make much sense of what Cave and Hitchens are on about as I have never had an experience of anything like that, though I do find music, art and literature to be transporting in a non-mystical sense.

Fifthly, doing an A Level in Religious Studies is one of the best ways to be introduced to atheistic thinking these days, namely, that of luminaries such as the wonderful David Hume, Bertrand Russell, AJ Ayer, Jeremy Bentham, JL Mackie and, of course, Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens.

In fact, one of the best and most resolutely sceptical philosophers around at the present time is a guy called Stephen Law, who often does workshops for sixth-formers. He is actually the author of a book called ‘Believing Bullshit’ which I once contemplated making one of the official textbooks for my A Level students, as the idea of their parents and fellow pupils stumbling across them reading it had a certain subversive appeal. Unfortunately, there wasn’t quite enough overlap between the content of the book and the syllabus that I was teaching at the time to justify that decision. But anyway, here he is in action:



I used to show that to my Year 9’s.

Finally, if Religious Studies was removed from the curriculum, there is a danger that the extremist and sometimes barking mad beliefs that some kids get from home would go unchallenged and would be left to incubate.

Having said that though, it wouldn’t bother me if the name of the subject was changed to ‘Philosophy’ or ‘World Views.’

As far as primary school kids are concerned, I don’t see any reason why they can’t be introduced to a bit of critical thinking even at that age, as there are books and courses designed to specifically do just that. See here:

P4C in the UK

P4C in the UK
www.philosophy-foundation.org www.philosophy-foundation.org

Pete Worley’s publications are really good for that as they are aimed at kids from about 5 upwards.

Anyway, this post is far too long.So will leave it there.
Click to expand...

My RE teacher at school was nowhere near as ingesting as you mate!

One thing he did teach me was that Latin phrase we used to have on our badge - Superbia In Proelio - doesn’t mean what we thought it does and the Superbia/Pride bit of that phrase and the phrase as a whole is actually a negative connotation and the pride is an arrogant pride that usually comes with a fall in battle.

But that’s about the most interesting thing he told me and it had nowt to do with any lesson he taught!
 
Sir peace frog said:
when the kids where babies i refused to get them christened ,if they want to later on in life when they are old enough and hopefully wise enough then that's up to them .
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I’d be the same if I had kids.

My Sister asked me to be God parent to her first born and I said ‘but I don’t believe in God and anything I say in church to say I’d be doing in the eyes of “god” I’d be lying’…

She said if I didn’t do it she wouldn’t speak to me so I just did it for less hassle!
 
I was made to go to Sunday School when I was about 7 or 8 years old. I listened to a load of boring fucking bullshit and have been an atheist ever since.
This was reinforced later in my teens as a council house kid being told not to hang out near the private houses by their middle class Christian owners. I watched them drive to church in the morning wearing their Sunday Best clothes. Then they would come home and tell us to get off their estate like we were working class scum.
Also know a lot of fucked up Catholics who were treated appallingly as kids by priests and nuns and grew up to be pretty fucked up adults.
In general almost all religions preach lies and fairy tales and they survive by brain washing children. None are founded on empirical data, you just have to have faith. Just fuck off the lot of you.
 
I do have religious beliefs but I have always left it up to my kids to come to their own conclusions. I have tried to encourage them to look at all beliefs (and non-beliefs) out there and decide for themselves. If they ask me any questions on the subject, then I'll try and answer them to the best of my ability.
 
JASR said:
I'm not religious, nor were my parents.
The kids went to a CofE primary school which had (at the time) a slightly relaxed attitude - despite being a stone's throw from the church.
They started coming back saying various things.

My partner (at the time) + I, both went with answering any statements they came out with "some people believe in..' whatever they had come out with, and explained what that was, then came out with the emphasis on there are many other religions and people following those relgions who don't believe in 'whatever they came out with', and then finally 'partner+I, don't believe it, we are athiests and don't believe in god(s) at all.

All this can be backed up with making sure they have a grounding in some simple science juxtasupposed with the relgious belief. eg 'The bible mentions the world being a small area around the mediterainian, it doesn't mention all those billions of other worlds in the billions of other star systems, in the billions of other other galaxys... odd eh?'
Ditto get them to think about the nice story of the Ark... how did they gather all the animals from Australia for example, when they didn't know Australia existed, nor the time spent to get there, nor the time spent to capture the animals, feed them, bring them back, shove them in an ark, float for a bit, and then take them all the way back across ocaens that hadn't still hadn't been mentioned...' You get the idea.

Don't deny or come out with 'it's bollox' just give practical, scientific, factual examples of the crap. And ensure 100% that they are aware that there will be no comeback from a god(s) for not following what others tell them is the only religion.
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You can save yourselves a lot of time and effort by just telling them it's bollocks.
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
My RE teacher at school was nowhere near as ingesting as you mate!

One thing he did teach me was that Latin phrase we used to have on our badge - Superbia In Proelio - doesn’t mean what we thought it does and the Superbia/Pride bit of that phrase and the phrase as a whole is actually a negative connotation and the pride is an arrogant pride that usually comes with a fall in battle.

But that’s about the most interesting thing he told me and it had nowt to do with any lesson he taught!
Click to expand...

I doubt there are many teachers at secondary level as knowledgeable as Zen.

At my school we had two RE teachers, one would eat a bit of dog food from a can every year in front of the year 8 assembly. As a sort of "life of Pi" message, when anyone with any sense knew he did actually eat it. Decent bloke though.

Other was a Canadian crank whose faith in god came via her own childhood appendicitis. If that's not a miracle, I don't know what is.
 
mexico1970 said:
If the school hadn't told him there was a thing called churches he would never have known, same goes for Mosques, Synagogues etc.

IMHO religion should be kept out of ALL schools.
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Be hard push that considering the magnitude of church funded or part funded schools.
denislawsbackheel said:
If this is a non church state school make a formal complaint.
They are forbidden from pushing any one faith.
You can withdraw your child from RE and assemblies if you wish by right.
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A formal complaint? I assume you have little idea of the deliverance of a curriculum that is decided and written in its content by the government’s DoE. Where did he say they were pushing one faith? Next half-term, they’ll probably be made aware of Islam, Hinduism or Judaism.

FWIW, I’m a teacher in a primary CoE school. I have, at no point in my life, believed in any higher power, God or religion and to be honest, majority of the families and parents of the school don’t care for it either. At no point, does anyone push faith views onto a child as it’s not allowed, and we always end with the quip “it’s your life to choose your beliefs in whatever you wish”.
 
We took them to church on Sundays we even taught them to say a prayer before bed “ god bless a whole host of friends names ” They really do grow up normal and perfectly capable of deciding for themselves if they believe in christianity or not.

At school they now honour the majority of faiths, young children seem to enjoy celebrations and I wouldn’t want them to feel excluded from class when other children partake in lessons
 
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