How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

Palerider said:
I'll concentrate on answering point 4 for now.
My belief is that the EU is basically a middle class con job where the working class are treated as movable labour. The referendum has certainly shook up the status quo and changed that paid slaves attitude but more than that it has shook up those Remainers who thought they were the good guys. I'm not interested in helping people on above average earnings but have all the time in the world for the low paid. I had hoped that with more working class kids going to I university that they would break up that status quo themselves instead they have just joined the rich at the trough. Many working class children are not gifted academically and therefore will struggle in the rather rigged game of best jobs for best education. That, however, does not mean that they should be called stupid or thought to be pawns easily manipulated, as so often happens on the Guardian and Telegraph sites, with no one objecting I might add. Would PR be a better system, probably but much, much more important than that is that we are represented by a Parliament that matches the population which means 50% of our MPs should not have gone to university but have life experience instead. So have things changed for the better? If you were at the bottom it does not matter, the pot has been stirred thoroughly and something new will emerge. Nothing to lose.
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Incoherent ramblings!

How was voluntary freedom of movement for all beneficial to the people running the con?

I voted to remain but at no time saw it as a good and bad guy thing. Lied to and fell for the scam springs to mind for those who chose to believe the "grass wil be greener on the other side" nonsense. If it was, we'd have at least seen the shoots of new a lawn by now.

So all those on a below average salary are OK, but stuff those above-like many nurses, teachers, rail workers etc. The fact is many above average earners do need help in some form or other. But that's the effect of years of austerity and mis management by the very people that you trust, because they're British, to make all of the right decisions for this country. Funnily enough the decline of our economy had little or nothing to do with being in the EU but you chose to go that route rather than calling out those who were promising you the earth.

As the youngest of 5 kids in a 3 bed council house, I was not particularly academic, but good parenting and encouragement from Mum and Dad helped me to probably over achieve. But it did involve me leaving my home town at 18 to start a job and I have subsequently lived away from that area ever since,so a victim of "moveable labour". Maybe the act of effective parenting has diminished somewhat.

PR would indeed stir the pot and it can't come soon enough. How can it be right that 2.5m votes get only 1 MP? but what are we about to get-the realignment of constituency boundaries that may well make the chances of getting the tories out even more difficult. And your vote for Brexit gave extra power to them to be able to do this. You nay not like it but it's a fact.

Nothing to lose at the bottom?-worker's rights,ability to strike,ability to protest, reduced travel and work freedoms for future generations compared to the opportunities you helped vote away...shall I go on?
 
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WTF don't these thick cunts get ????? People like me - and there are quite a few of us on BM - have done 40 odd years working sorted our finances and retired - any little tweaks to taxation will do nothing to entice us back to work. Well maybe a guaranteed £85k pa for the next 5 years subsidised food and drink and very wide ranging and poorly policed expenses system might work - though I am not sure say Amazon will deliver that and accept the pace us 60 year olds will work at - plus we only want sociable hours.
Bottom line is they fucked it and cut the UK off from an EU wide workforce - they broke it and we ain't minded to fix it for them

www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk

Daily Mail Front Page 28th of January 2023 - Tomorrow's Papers Today!

As part of reforms to re-engage over-50s who left work during the pandemic, the £1 million allowance on tax-free pension savings could be raised.
www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk
 
Oh great that means more Chinese and Indian overseas students needed to plug the gap and keep FE afloat - I am sure thats what Farage abd the Red Wall knew they were voting for

www.theguardian.com

Number of EU students enrolling in UK universities halves post-Brexit

Data shows sharp decline in students from Italy, Germany and France with Brexit seen as primary deterrent
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Palerider said:
I'll concentrate on answering point 4 for now.
My belief is that the EU is basically a middle class con job where the working class are treated as movable labour. The referendum has certainly shook up the status quo and changed that paid slaves attitude but more than that it has shook up those Remainers who thought they were the good guys. I'm not interested in helping people on above average earnings but have all the time in the world for the low paid. I had hoped that with more working class kids going to I university that they would break up that status quo themselves instead they have just joined the rich at the trough. Many working class children are not gifted academically and therefore will struggle in the rather rigged game of best jobs for best education. That, however, does not mean that they should be called stupid or thought to be pawns easily manipulated, as so often happens on the Guardian and Telegraph sites, with no one objecting I might add. Would PR be a better system, probably but much, much more important than that is that we are represented by a Parliament that matches the population which means 50% of our MPs should not have gone to university but have life experience instead. So have things changed for the better? If you were at the bottom it does not matter, the pot has been stirred thoroughly and something new will emerge. Nothing to lose.
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A middle class con job? That suggests the working class are been conned out of something? What is that, the freedom to take their labour and skills to any country within the EU? The academic opportunities of Erasmus or a post graduate Marie Curie grant?

You impression of the EU is of some malign organisation that seeks to do harm or exploit people. I disagree. I grew up in Ireland in the 80's and 90's the transformation that the EU is responsible for in that country is astonishing. In my own life, I can remember my parents scrimping for every penny and then within 5 years we became comfortable. Holidays abroad where before buying snickers/marathon on a day out was not possible. This was not due to a brilliant Irish ruling class but because of the investment of the EU. It transformed the country I grew up in beyond all recognition in the span of 30 years, one of the poorest to one of the richest countries in Europe.

Your point about young people going to university and then ending up at the trough is strange, young people from humble beginnings figure out how to become rich and took their place alongside the other people at the sharp end of capitalism. The difference is they did not inherit their position. This is capitalism at its best and worst.

I would be interested to know what you are referring to as the Guardian or Telegraph calling working class people stupid?

The points you raise are more against capitalism and the caste system present in the UK. Neither of this is the responsibility of the EU, leaving the EU will not improve things on this front. It will however make things worse in so many other areas.
 
johnnytapia said:
An awful lot of people voted for something they weren’t interested in.
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Yes, after many were manipulated in to believing it was an issue they should very much care about and convinced that voting to leave would miraculously solve many of their problems by the Leave campaign (even though many of their problems would actually be made worse and nearly every promise made by the Leave campaign has been broken or shown to have been nonsense from the off).

Until the Leave campaign grabbed at the opportunity presented by Cameron’s utter idiocy, polls and media coverage showed most people really weren’t interested in it at all.

And, even so, an awful lot of people still didn’t vote for (or against) it at all.

At this point, anyone that still thinks the Leave campaign, backed by some of the worst actors in the UK and from the global elite beyond, were fighting for the common folk’s best interests, with all of the evidence pointing in the exact opposite direction, really need to have a long, hard look at themselves and where that belief is coming from.
 
Vic said:
Car production at its lowest since car ownership was a minority interest.

Blaming it on shortage of superconductors.

Reliance on foreign suppliers (Taiwan) is obviously not wise.

USA and EU are planning for producing their own, but as we can't be involved in either, we'd have to do it ourselves - more billions...
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There are thousands of unsold cars on forecourts, in showrooms, auction sites and storage areas around Britain.
Perhaps it isn't such a bad thing to stop production for a while...
 
SebastianBlue said:
Yes, after many were manipulated in to believing it was an issue they should very much care about and convinced that voting to leave would miraculously solve many of their problems by the Leave campaign (even though many of their problems would actually be made worse and nearly every promise made by the Leave campaign has been broken or shown to have been nonsense from the off).

Until the Leave campaign grabbed at the opportunity presented by Cameron’s utter idiocy, polls and media coverage showed most people really weren’t interested in it at all.

And, even so, an awful lot of people still didn’t vote for (or against) it at all.

At this point, anyone that still thinks the Leave campaign, backed by some of the worst actors in the UK and from the global elite beyond, were fighting for the common folk’s best interests, with all of the evidence pointing in the exact opposite direction, really need to have a long, hard look at themselves and where that belief is coming from.
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Some of the things weren’t even problems to most people before 2016. I'd never before been to the pub or been in work listening to people talk about freedom of movement or the European Court of Human Rights. All of a sudden they were matters of great importance.
Cameron is a cnut.
 
Gingers Dad said:
Some of the things weren’t even problems to most people before 2016. I'd never before been to the pub or been in work listening to people talk about freedom of movement or the European Court of Human Rights. All of a sudden they were matters of great importance.
Cameron is a cnut.
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Social media more to blame
 
Gingers Dad said:
Cameron totally to blame. Should never have called for a referendum. A yes / no vote on something so complicated was absolutely diabolical
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Agreed, but the pressure on him or future PMs to call the vote was at bubbling point because of Farage and anti EU brigade on social media whipping up hysteria

eventually it was going to happen
 
BlueHammer85 said:
Agreed, but the pressure on him or future PMs to call the vote was at bubbling point because of Farage and anti EU brigade on social media whipping up hysteria

eventually it was going to happen
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Nonsense. It was an internal conservative party problem only, they were worried about Farage taking too many of their voters away and factions within the party forming. That is no reason to put such a critical issue to a referendum where the campaigns could be hijacked by irrelevant issues and outright lies.
 
BlueHammer85 said:
Agreed, but the pressure on him or future PMs to call the vote was at bubbling point because of Farage and anti EU brigade on social media whipping up hysteria

eventually it was going to happen
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Cameron knew that staying in the EU was vital for the UK. He should have put the country first even if it meant losing a few seats to UKip. The more exposure those racists have got has shown them up for what they really believe in. They would have soon faded away
 
Uncle Wally One Ball said:
Nonsense. It was an internal conservative party problem only, they were worried about Farage taking too many of their voters away and factions within the party forming. That is no reason to put such a critical issue to a referendum where the campaigns could be hijacked by irrelevant issues and outright lies.
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of course, massive mistake in hindsight

just remember at the time the anger that was rising because there wasn't a referendum for the EU membership
 
BlueHammer85 said:
of course, massive mistake in hindsight

just remember at the time the anger that was rising because there wasn't a referendum for the EU membership
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I think that has transformed into a complete lack of faith that politicians will ever do anything that courts good government, designed to benefit the people, rather than a cabal of their own supporters.
 
BlueHammer85 said:
of course, massive mistake in hindsight
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Massive mistake with foresight. Cameron’s hubris got in the way. He got lucky in 2010 and found himself in charge and taking riskier and riskier decisions. He tried to settle the country by re-uniting the Kingdom and then keeping the Kingdom within the EU. He gave the Scots their chance and then gave the English the same. The narrowness of that first vote should have been ample warning to avoid the second, but not for him.
 
Uncle Wally One Ball said:
Nonsense. It was an internal conservative party problem only, they were worried about Farage taking too many of their voters away and factions within the party forming. That is no reason to put such a critical issue to a referendum where the campaigns could be hijacked by irrelevant issues and outright lies.
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And absolutely was.
 
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