Middle East Conflict

Do you have links to show it was Israel? All I’ve read is a missile hit there vehicle.

For me at this point, keeping an open mind it’s 50/50 on who did it.

More deflection, the sort of shit Russia propaganda and military bloggers come out with. This neo-Zionist tendency to see only good in Israel actions is as much the problem as Hamas. No one is coming out of this with the moral high ground and both sides should hang their collective heads in shame.

Keeping a lid on this to stop it going regional is going to be some miracle.
 
More deflection, the sort of shit Russia propaganda and military bloggers come out with. This neo-Zionist tendency to see only good in Israel actions is as much the problem as Hamas. No one is coming out of this with the moral high ground and both sides should hang their collective heads in shame.

Keeping a lid on this to stop it going regional is going to be some miracle.
He’s right though. There’s no motive for Israel to stop civilians getting out of the kill zone but Hamas want to keep their human shield. I’ll reserve judgment.
 
You don't know that either so it is equal deflection. There is huge amount of precedent for Palestinians to be blown up by Hamas bombs, grenades, rockets and gunfire. I'm not saying it was Hamas, I'm not saying Israel haven't. What I'm saying is it is not so clear cut that anyone can make such a statement of blame at this point.

Start with the first question; why were they moving in the first place? I bet you’ll say Hamas terrorist attacks…because the alternative answer is going to fuck up your world view.
 
51 murdered by IDF and Settlers in the West Bank over the past week and 2 villages ‘depopulated’ and not a word of condemnation from Rishi, Biden or any of the other wankers in the mainstream media or western governments.

 
He’s right though. There’s no motive for Israel to stop civilians getting out of the kill zone but Hamas want to keep their human shield. I’ll reserve judgment.
Fair enough, but apparently the IDF say they are investigating the incident, which is odd. They presumably know where their ordnance is going so it shouldn't be too difficult to categorically deny it was them. If they don't know, that is a bigger problem.
 
Middle Eastern politics tends to be utterly cynical, so that wouldn't surprise me.

As for the passages you refer to, it's true that they can't be changed. But they are open to different interpretations.

Mainstream Islamic teaching, for example, maintains that in the earliest sources from which Islamic teachings are derived, the Qur’an and stories about the sunna, the records of the example set by Prophet Muhammad, jihad is connected with another Arabic word, sabr, which is associated with patiently and non-violently resisting wrongdoing. In the early years of Islam, this is how Muhammad and the first Muslims dealt with the harsh treatment they received from members of their own tribe. They didn’t respond with violence. They just put up with it.

Only later, when Muhammad and his early Muslim companions moved to Medina was the term qital or ‘fighting’ introduced, and here it is made quite clear that Muslims were only allowed to fight to protect themselves (and also non-Muslims who had been attacked) from the prospect of being wiped out. Furthermore, if the enemy stops fighting, Muslims were then required to do so themselves and make peace.

So if you are facing an existential threat, you are permitted to defend yourself.

When it comes to specific verses, their meaning is often contestable. For example, verse 3:151 reads ‘We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers….Hell shall be their home.’

Sounds pretty emphatic. However, another way of looking at the verse is in terms of its specific context. It was given to Muhammad just before an important battle, when the early Muslims faced a much stronger enemy. He was worried about the outcome and Allah was basically reassuring him that things would go well. So it was never meant to be a rule for all later Muslims to follow.

Unsurprisingly, the principle of abrogation (naskh) that you refer to has been severely criticised by both early and modern Muslim scholars. One example is the Syrian scholar Wahba al-Zuhayli, who has taken issue with the position that Qur'an 9:5 abrogates 124 other Quranic verses which preach peaceful solutions to conflicts. Here, al-Zuhayli seems to be taking up the position that the Qur'an has to be read holistically, and that the cumulative message is one of seeking peace and only resorting to the use of violence in extremis. Another response has been to explain 9:5 as being context specific. It refers only to Arab polytheist idolaters who were seeking to wipe out the early Muslims, as has already been suggested.

Of course, Salafi-jihadists have their own way of looking at things. Once again, I like what Adam Silverstein says about this in his little book on Islamic history. The additions in square brackets are my own;

'[A] lenient interpretation [of the relevant passages] will certainly appeal to the overwhelming majority of Muslims, for whom jihad is a personal battle against temptation, and who will be drawn into warfare only when provoked by those threatening Islam itself. And even then, innocents will be spared [this is due to rules laid down by the first Caliph Abu Bakr that are remarkably similar to those found in the later Just War tradition of Christianity].....But to extremists, Islam is under attack, a defensive jihad is necessary, and those non-combatants who were killed in the attacks were not innocent at all - in democracies voters bear full responsibility for their government's actions (in this case, Britain's aggression (as they see it) against Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan)'.

In summary, I reckon that if you have a large enough body of scripture you can inevitably find justifications for your own agenda and causes.

For example, some of the violence perpetrated by Japan in WW2 was justified in terms of a pragmatic Buddhist scriptural concept called upaya-kausalya. Violent manifestations of Christian Liberation Theology also find their justification in a passage from Luke's gospel about 'setting free the oppressed.'

Gush Emunim are no longer around but they would, I imagine, have based their ideology on conceptions of the land of Israel having been given to them by God. And the US anti-abortion movement 'Army of God' (responsible for 8 murders, 41 explosions and 173 arson attacks that caused hundreds of abortion clinics to close in the 1980's and 90's) invoke the 'suffer little children' Biblical passage to justify their actions.

One thing that is clear is that Salafi-jihadists absolutely contort themselves to find theological justifications for what they get up to. As Shiraz Maher puts it in his seminal study, 'The violence of groups like al-Qaeda and associated movements is neither irrational nor whimsical. For every act of violence, they will offer some form of reference to scriptural sources - however tenuous, esoteric or contested - to explain their actions.' It's their perverse way of trying to capture hearts and minds, I suppose.

But anyway, I've got to get on.

If there is something I learned from teaching Religious Studies as an academic subject for so long, it's that it is usually the puritans & literalists within a faith who cause all the problems.

Maybe that's why the irreverent Sufi Muslim poet Hafiz once made this haiku-like observation:

‘The great religions are the ships,
Poets the lifeboats,
Every sane person I know, Has jumped overboard.’
Are the poets sane, due to them being the lifeboats?
 
I don’t know. Do you?

And around the circle we go.

Arguing with people who ascribe to the world as told by the neo-zionists is as pointless as arguing religion with someone who believes in god. You don’t even know you’re doing it.

For the record https://www.timesofisrael.com/israe...ypt-after-telling-gazans-to-flee-through-it/#

What you going to say now?..”ah but were you there?” Like I say it’s the classic response we see from Russians regarding Ukraine. Interestingly you don’t believe any of that.
 
Only spent two days in Europe (Brussels) this week and tried to watch as much coverage as possible. Amazing to see how quickly the news has turned to Israeli aggression being too tough on civilian areas….where the rockets are coming from!

I know Europe is rapidly becoming more and more Muslim, but even BBC Newswatch had an entire segment on why they were not saying the word “terrorist” and calling it the “Israel-Gaza Conflict.”

The level of genuflection towards being as politically “correct” as possible was eye-opening.
 
Hamas (+Hezbollah/Iran?) get their wish as Saudi Arabia suspend their normalisation talks with Israel.

The whole reason for the last week’s goings-on.


So that’s Step 1 achieved.

What’s Step 2?

Hezbollah to attack from the North?
 
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And around the circle we go.

Arguing with people who ascribe to the world as told by the neo-zionists is as pointless as arguing religion with someone who believes in god. You don’t even know you’re doing it.

For the record https://www.timesofisrael.com/israe...ypt-after-telling-gazans-to-flee-through-it/#

What you going to say now?..”ah but were you there?” Like I say it’s the classic response we see from Russians regarding Ukraine. Interestingly you don’t believe any of that.
No I’ll hold my hands up and say that Israel bombed the crossing. Sorry to disappoint you.
I still think there’s every chance they didn’t bomb the convoy.
 
The problem is that it could equally be Hamas, who ordered them not to leave, as Israel.

How we verified video of strike on fleeing Palestinians​

We've been reporting that at least 12 people, including young children, have been killed in a strike on a Palestinian convoy fleeing northern Gaza via a designated evacuation route.
We were able to do this because of video footage from the aftermath of the strike, which we verified the location of.
Understanding when and where a piece of video was filmed is key part of understanding major developments in conflicts like this.
At BBC Verify we analysed two videos of the strike on a convoy of vehicles heading towards southern Gaza. The videos are highly disturbing, with images of numerous dead bodies - including young children - that are far too graphic to show.
However, they also offer details as to the location of the incident.
We knew that the 45-km Salah al-Deen road, which runs north to south across Gaza, is being used as one of the main evacuation routes. Local reports also suggested the strike had occurred on this road.
The footage shows a central reservation and several buildings whose aerial profile and arrangement we were able to match to a particular section of the road.
Free-to-use

 
No I’ll hold my hands up and say that Israel bombed the crossing. Sorry to disappoint you.
I still think there’s every chance they didn’t bomb the convoy.

How we verified video of strike on fleeing Palestinians​

We've been reporting that at least 12 people, including young children, have been killed in a strike on a Palestinian convoy fleeing northern Gaza via a designated evacuation route.
We were able to do this because of video footage from the aftermath of the strike, which we verified the location of.
Understanding when and where a piece of video was filmed is key part of understanding major developments in conflicts like this.
At BBC Verify we analysed two videos of the strike on a convoy of vehicles heading towards southern Gaza. The videos are highly disturbing, with images of numerous dead bodies - including young children - that are far too graphic to show.
However, they also offer details as to the location of the incident.
We knew that the 45-km Salah al-Deen road, which runs north to south across Gaza, is being used as one of the main evacuation routes. Local reports also suggested the strike had occurred on this road.
The footage shows a central reservation and several buildings whose aerial profile and arrangement we were able to match to a particular section of the road.
Free-to-use
 
The problem is that it could equally be Hamas, who ordered them not to leave, as Israel.
Yes it could be either.

I posted (yesterday)!about Hamas launching rockets from the property of people they don’t like.

I think there will be plenty of these incidents particularly if the IDF are given a free rein. This Major Kemp who’s always on the radio taking about precision strikes. When I did my security training soldiers who’d worked for our military leaders in the Balkans and elsewhere told me how the host of an event would offer them food but tue majors woukd stuff their faces as their security detail went hungry. I digress I know but the officer class referring to collateral damage are real shitbags:
 

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