Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

Israel are getting cold feet. The UN is not wholeheartedly behind them in the manner they assumed it would be. Their military is conducting operations which makes them feel comfortable - striking from a distance using superior equipment and technology. I don't think they have the bottom for a Mariupol - one distorted by the presence of their own held as hostages in the front line - I think a not widely popular Netanyahu knows he will get slaughtered in the press at home.
 
Ducado said:
A one state solution would be the way out of it, but then Israel would no longer be a Jewish state, so it’s never mentioned, it’s a more practical solution
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It might be the only solution soon. If Israel keeps murdering civilians and arming settlers, understandably it's going to become less and less safe for Jewish people to live there.

Like Oedipus or Anakin Skywalker, It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, the zionists warn of another holocaust, which they make more likely with their genocidal attitude to Palestinians.

The only way to restore goodwill between Arabs and Jews would be to kill the evils of Zionism and Islamism with a secular state and a constitution that upholds civil rights of all its citizens.
 
BlueAnorak said:
I pretty much agree for the long term but in the short and medium terms it doesn't fly.
Hamas is committed to the extinction of Isreal and the genocide of the Jewish population by Jihad. How are they to be stopped in their goal?
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The international community would have to float the idea to receptive leadership on both sides. Set out a timetable. During this period of 10 years, for example, the objective would be to give Hamas no where to go politically speaking. To an extent that would also apply to the right wingers and settlers in Israel. Money would have to persuade the Palestinian populace that life could be better. Most of the Arab countries could get on board with this I imagine.
It's a tough sell to the Israelis too. But given what's been going on the last 60 years surely the world and the combatants need to try something different.
 
bluethrunthru said:
Israel are getting cold feet. The UN is not wholeheartedly behind them in the manner they assumed it would be. Their military is conducting operations which makes them feel comfortable - striking from a distance using superior equipment and technology. I don't think they have the bottom for a Mariupol - one distorted by the presence of their own held as hostages in the front line - I think a not widely popular Netanyahu knows he will get slaughtered in the press at home.
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I don’t think they’re getting cold feet. At best the pragmatism and reality from the military that you can’t wipe out Hamas no matter how many buildings you bomb is taking over from the emotional reactions and over-promising of politicians immediately after the attack 3 weeks ago.
 
domalino said:
I don’t think they’re getting cold feet. At best the pragmatism and reality from the military that you can’t wipe out Hamas no matter how many buildings you bomb is taking over from the emotional reactions and over-promising of politicians immediately after the attack 3 weeks ago.
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When I said Israel i meant the military - they know every casualty disables 5 personnel. You injure someone or kill someone then another 4 combatants are required to carry the wounded and the dead out of harms way.
Netanyahu is now a hostage to his own hysterics from the outset and has the military and the Yanks spelling out the realities to him
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
It might be the only solution soon. If Israel keeps murdering civilians and arming settlers, understandably it's going to become less and less safe for Jewish people to live there.

Like Oedipus or Anakin Skywalker, It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, the zionists warn of another holocaust, which they make more likely with their genocidal attitude to Palestinians.

The only way to restore goodwill between Arabs and Jews would be to kill the evils of Zionism and Islamism with a secular state and a constitution that upholds civil rights of all its citizens.
Click to expand...
It is indeed the most obvious solution.It has been discussed ,but from my understanding that would be a major blow to the Israeli way of thinking. Frankly if it could happen, it is the way forward and should Israel or a UN peace keeping force get rid of the Hamas terrorists I believe most would be happy with that solution. Israel would equally perhaps have to stop the Right Wing political agenda to allow this to happen,stop their attacks on Palestinians, and allow the judiciary some degree of autonomy.
 
Berts Neck said:
It is indeed the most obvious solution.It has been discussed ,but from my understanding that would be a major blow to the Israeli way of thinking. Frankly if it could happen, it is the way forward and should Israel or a UN peace keeping force get rid of the Hamas terrorists I believe most would be happy with that solution. Israel would equally perhaps have to stop the Right Wing political agenda to allow this to happen,stop their attacks on Palestinians, and allow the judiciary some degree of autonomy.
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The alternative for Israel is perpetual war and the risk of being wiped out. If they keep doing this sooner or later there will be a coordinated attack on multiple fronts and they will lose.

But a peaceful successor state would also bring stability to the region.
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
The alternative for Israel is perpetual war and the risk of being wiped out. If they keep doing this sooner or later there will be a coordinated attack on multiple fronts and they will lose.

But a peaceful successor state would also bring stability to the region.
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Will they lose?
I think everyone would lose if that happened.
Isreal's presumed total of around 400 or so nuclear warheads says nuclear armagedon is the probable outcome if that happens.
That is why we in the west are so loathe to sort out Russian agression in Ukraine with their 6000 nuclear delivery weapons.
In fact, under your predicted "peaceful successor state" solution it would actually be devoid of Jews as they'd all probably be dead.
Just admit your solution is impossible and is indeed pure fantasy.
 
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Isn't the "Samson option" a thing with Israel? If they feel they are backed into a corner they unleash mutual destruction on the world basically. Seems excessive if you ask me
 
BlueAnorak said:
Will they lose? I think everyone woukd lose if that happened.
Around 400 nuclear warheads says it is probably the case.
That is why we in the west are so loathe to sort out Russian agression in Ukraine with their 6000 delivery weapons.
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If just a single nuke was deployed by Israel that would be guaranteed game over for them - no serious democracy could continue support for them and razing the Middle East to a wasteland with a half life of God knows what would - rightly - be game over for them
 
Berts Neck said:
It is indeed the most obvious solution.It has been discussed ,but from my understanding that would be a major blow to the Israeli way of thinking. Frankly if it could happen, it is the way forward and should Israel or a UN peace keeping force get rid of the Hamas terrorists I believe most would be happy with that solution. Israel would equally perhaps have to stop the Right Wing political agenda to allow this to happen,stop their attacks on Palestinians, and allow the judiciary some degree of autonomy.
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Who the hell is going to put their troops at risk from extremists?
Pure fantasy.
 
bluethrunthru said:
If just a single nuke was deployed by Israel that would be guaranteed game over for them - no serious democracy could continue support for them and razing the Middle East to a wasteland with a half life of God knows what would - rightly - be game over for them
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If pretty much any country fired a nuke it would be game over for them. Not that it’s really relevant to this discussion because I don’t think it’s not going to happen anytime soon.
 
bluethrunthru said:
If just a single nuke was deployed by Israel that would be guaranteed game over for them - no serious democracy could continue support for them and razing the Middle East to a wasteland with a half life of God knows what would - rightly - be game over for them
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Game over for everyone I think. That's why countries have nukes - to protect their existence. It's certainly why Israel has them.
 
bluethrunthru said:
If just a single nuke was deployed by Israel that would be guaranteed game over for them - no serious democracy could continue support for them and razing the Middle East to a wasteland with a half life of God knows what would - rightly - be game over for them
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Uncle Sam and our lot of gutless cowards probably still would repeating the same mantra as always.
 
Ducado said:
A one state solution would be the way out of it, but then Israel would no longer be a Jewish state, so it’s never mentioned, it’s a more practical solution
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How many Muslim countries live as secular states? Not a single one of them. All Muslim countries abide by Islamic law and for many of those countries there is no freedom of religion. Just for example atheists in Saudi Arabia are classed as terrorists and anyone who is not Sunni is essentially a second class citizen.

With this in mind why would anyone who is not Muslim want to absorb into a Muslim state? And finally on the flip side why would the Palestinians accept a single secular state on 'their' lands which is not Islamic?

A single state solution is impossible and almost insults to the fact that without Israel Jewish people do not have a self-determined homeland. If a single secular state is the only option then for Jews there is no difference between living in New Zealand vs whatever this new state is.
 
The Americans did not have a lot of credit on the Arab Street but they appear to have lost it completely now, which is dangerous because bad actors will step into the void

They could have handled this a lot better and there is some furious back peddling going on, Biden just appears to say the wrong thing at the wrong time

They could have come down very hard on the Israelis and got them to back off with the settlers or at least make them accountable to the law

This matters a lot, because we need friends in that region
 
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