Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

Surely Hamas, an organisation/government that admits genocide is it's aim, needs to be stopped. Does anyone disagree with that statement? The problem then becomes how Hamas can be stopped and brought to justice and who should do it. If the UN, the international community, the Palestinians themselves, the Palestinian supporters don't want to do anything about Hamas then what option do the Israeli's have? Idea's anyone? Does it just become justice based on maths, you kill 1000 of us and we will kill 1000 of you?
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
They have Iron dome don't they?

The invasion wasn't sparked by rocket attacks it was sparked by an invasion of hundreds of militants.

And the militants died at a roughly 1:1 ratio to each Israeli life. They knew they were on suicide missions unless they were part of the crew who went back to Gaza with hostages.

The rockets aren't particularly effective.

Israel isn't likely to be so daft to allow that kind of invasion from Gaza again.

What you are saying is that Israel has the right to kill tens of thousands of people to take out the rockets which kill only a small number of people.
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What wonderful whataboutary.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
If they wipe Hamas out, or their ability to carry out acts of terror, then their security situation will have improved significantly.

I'm staggered (although maybe I shouldn't be) that a number of posters would seemingly prefer a terror group to retain its capacity to inflict deaths and injury on a democratic nation, rather than have that ability removed from them. It's almost like logic gets turned on its head when Jews are involved.
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They aren't attacking Hamas alone though. They are murdering civilians and you know that but you seem to believe Israel has some sort of special dispensation to commit war crimes. IF they wipe out Hamas? IF they stop them operating militarily? And they are big "if's" What about what comes next. You think the Arab world will just shrug its shoulders and say fair enough. The biggest recruitment tool the IRA ever had was Bloody Sunday and that was a fucking tea party compared to what's happening in Gaza now. Prefer a terror group! To the best of my knowledge nobody on this site has expressed support for Hamas overtly or otherwise, do you perhaps think it's you imagining it because its not in line with your viewpoint. Have you got a persecution complex when it comes to Israel!. I can tell you now that if the boot was on the other foot I'd be just as angry if Palestinians were slaughtering Israelis and yes I outright condemn what has done and continues to do.
 
inbetween said:
I have not said once that Israel has a right to kill thousands of people, I repeat that Israel must stop bombing Gaza.

However look at the chain of events, Israel is bombing Gaza because Israel was attacked by Hamas and remains under attack from Hamas. If Hamas stops then Israel will stop too and the war ends. I want both to stop, you just want one side to stop.

I'm not going to bother answering your reasoning around Iron Dome and the rocket attacks which threaten Israeli's daily, it's actually moronic.
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And what should Israel do if Hamas don't stop?
 
inbetween said:
I have not said once that Israel has a right to kill thousands of people, I repeat that Israel must stop bombing Gaza.

However look at the chain of events, Israel is bombing Gaza because Israel was attacked by Hamas and remains under attack from Hamas. If Hamas stops then Israel will stop too and the war ends. I want both to stop, you just want one side to stop.

I'm not going to bother answering your reasoning around Iron Dome and the rocket attacks which threaten Israeli's daily, it's actually moronic.
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That's not the case is it? Israel uses Gaza as a punching bag and bulldozes houses in the West Bank for no reason at all.
 
Bradley82 said:
They aren't attacking Hamas alone though. They are murdering civilians and you know that but you seem to believe Israel has some sort of special dispensation to commit war crimes. IF they wipe out Hamas? IF they stop them operating militarily? And they are big "if's" What about what comes next. You think the Arab world will just shrug its shoulders and say fair enough. The biggest recruitment tool the IRA ever had was Bloody Sunday and that was a fucking tea party compared to what's happening in Gaza now. Prefer a terror group! To the best of my knowledge nobody on this site has expressed support for Hamas overtly or otherwise, do you perhaps think it's you imagining it because its not in line with your viewpoint. Have you got a persecution complex when it comes to Israel!. I can tell you now that if the boot was on the other foot I'd be just as angry if Palestinians were slaughtering Israelis and yes I outright condemn what has done and continues to do.
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He does. He's an ethnocrat.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
If they wipe Hamas out, or their ability to carry out acts of terror, then their security situation will have improved significantly.

I'm staggered (although maybe I shouldn't be) that a number of posters would seemingly prefer a terror group to retain its capacity to inflict deaths and injury on a democratic nation, rather than have that ability removed from them. It's almost like logic gets turned on its head when Jews are involved.
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The problem now Israel has gone in is they have to achieve their objectives with Hamas. The alternative is Israel’s future threats of action, that have dominated the balance of power, become a paper tiger. They either show the region there is a limit to their words or they stay the course and show their isn’t. Any weakness will be seized upon by Iran and her allies.

The Israeli people need to be prepared to see a lot of body bags as this is urban/gorilla warfare and it’s going to take a lot of sacrifice to succeed in the military objectives - coupled with a limit for how long action can go on for before this spills out regionally. My own opinion is Israel have fallen for Iran’s trap and this is going to blow up in the region.

I just hope it doesn’t and Israel has real plan for a decent and peaceful life for all once this is over - otherwise it’s going to be a futile exercise that will kill thousands (10’s of thousands) and they’ll have not inched a step closer to preventing further terrorist atrocities like we saw 3 weeks ago.
 
Bradley82 said:
They aren't attacking Hamas alone though. They are murdering civilians and you know that but you seem to believe Israel has some sort of special dispensation to commit war crimes. IF they wipe out Hamas? IF they stop them operating militarily? And they are big "if's" What about what comes next. You think the Arab world will just shrug its shoulders and say fair enough. The biggest recruitment tool the IRA ever had was Bloody Sunday and that was a fucking tea party compared to what's happening in Gaza now. Prefer a terror group! To the best of my knowledge nobody on this site has expressed support for Hamas overtly or otherwise, do you perhaps think it's you imagining it because its not in line with your viewpoint. Have you got a persecution complex when it comes to Israel!. I can tell you now that if the boot was on the other foot I'd be just as angry if Palestinians were slaughtering Israelis and yes I outright condemn what has done and continues to do.
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You know, it's not like Blazin' Squad "Hello, is that Hamas? This is Israel. How about meeting on the playing fields at 2 o'clock with baseball bats and chains?"

Hamas are deliberately hiding in, and operating from, civilian areas. The IDF has given warnings that the northern part of the Gaza Strip was going to be attacked and it has been. Hamas ordered people to stay put. A refugee convoy was attacked on a "safe" route and logic suggests it was Hamas who did that (although we don't know for sure).

Hamas has never given two shits about the civilian population of Gaza. They've been happy to hide behind and among them. As I've said before, while it's terrible to see all the civilian deaths, actions have consequences. Once Hamas carried out the atrocities three weeks ago, the consequences were pretty inevitable.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
You know, it's not like Blazin' Squad "Hello, is that Hamas? This is Israel. How about meeting on the playing fields at 2 o'clock with baseball bats and chains?"

Hamas are deliberately hiding in, and operating from, civilian areas. The IDF has given warnings that the northern part of the Gaza Strip was going to be attacked and it has been. Hamas ordered people to stay put. A refugee convoy was attacked on a "safe" route and logic suggests it was Hamas who did that (although we don't know for sure).

Hamas has never given two shits about the civilian population of Gaza. They've been happy to hide behind and among them. As I've said before, while it's terrible to see all the civilian deaths, actions have consequences. Once Hamas carried out the atrocities three weeks ago, the consequences were pretty inevitable.
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What do you think will be the consequences of Israel's actions?
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
That's not the case is it? Israel uses Gaza as a punching bag and bulldozes houses in the West Bank for no reason at all.
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Israel is a democratic country, it can be held to account however it can't be held to account whilst under attack. It has declared a unitary government, war and state of emergency. Nothing except further violence is going to happen whilst this situation continues.

The violence has to stop on both sides, a humanitarian ceasefire is critical and Hamas must be part of that unless you're asking for a double standard where Israel accepts a ceasefire which only applies to itself? And seriously why would any country ever agree to that?

Both should bilaterally declare a ceasefire now so that electricity, aid, water and critical supplies can be brought into Gaza. The political battles must then be fought around tables where they should be. If that is refused for violence then I would totally agree that Israel, Hamas or anyone else must be held to account for its actions.
 
mexico1970 said:
I have stated that killing civilians is wrong, if you fail to see what the term "Never again" means for Jews then it is you that is being wilfully ignorant.

Never again applies to the holocaust and to Jews, looks like some people say you have to see it from both sides but genuinely don't mean it.
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"Never Again" doesn't give the right to break international human rights law and commit atrocities. Do you understand that? Do you? It isnt difficult to grasp. It isnt a defence, it's not an entitlement. I've told you once that I know what Never Again means.
 
Bradley82 said:
"Never Again" doesn't give the right to break international human rights law and commit atrocities. Do you understand that? Do you? It isnt difficult to grasp. It isnt a defence, it's not an entitlement. I've told you once that I know what Never Again means.
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All I said is that never again meant that Jews mean never again, it doesn't apply to Israel it applies to Jews. You do understand what Hamas wants to do to Jews don't you?

You can't differentiate because you only see it from the one side, that's your problem not mine.
 
Palerider said:
Surely Hamas, an organisation/government that admits genocide is it's aim, needs to be stopped. Does anyone disagree with that statement? The problem then becomes how Hamas can be stopped and brought to justice and who should do it. If the UN, the international community, the Palestinians themselves, the Palestinian supporters don't want to do anything about Hamas then what option do the Israeli's have? Idea's anyone? Does it just become justice based on maths, you kill 1000 of us and we will kill 1000 of you?
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It’s about Israel approaching this situation in a more considered fashion. Wiping out Hamas is a worthwhile, and possibly achievable aim, but doing so quickly is unrealistic and will cause an unacceptable number of civilian casualties. Which will make Isreal more vulnerable btw. So, therefore utterly misconceived.

Why do you assume that eliminating Hamas can only occur swiftly (which I believe your post implies). And what’s your reasoning for believing it is achievable in a short timeframe? Especially when the controlling minds are in a different jurisdiction.

Israel has been suckered in by Hamas here. They are not thinking straight. And that makes me very nervous.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
And what should Israel do if Hamas don't stop?
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They were stopped and you have one of the worlds finest special forces, eliminate Hamas and their support just like you did with the Munich terrorists.

Israel is committing mass war crimes and creating 1000s of martyrs in every part of the world.

As said earlier you are turning a terrible situation in which most of the world had total sympathy to to a world that is rapidly starting to hate and despise and understandably so, the retaliation has gone beyond all rhyme and reason, it's now become a mass slaughter.

They should have learned from the US reaction to 911, they did not , they want to destroy Palestine once and for all.
 
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