Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

[inbetween]

The problem now Israel has gone in is they have to achieve their objectives with Hamas. The alternative is Israel’s future threats of action, that have dominated the balance of power, become a paper tiger. They either show the region there is a limit to their words or they stay the course and show their isn’t. Any weakness will be seized upon by Iran and her allies.

The Israeli people need to be prepared to see a lot of body bags as this is urban/gorilla warfare and it’s going to take a lot of sacrifice to succeed in the military objectives - coupled with a limit for how long action can go on for before this spills out regionally. My own opinion is Israel have fallen for Iran’s trap and this is going to blow up in the region.

I just hope it doesn’t and Israel has real plan for a decent and peaceful life for all once this is over - otherwise it’s going to be a futile exercise that will kill thousands (10’s of thousands) and they’ll have not inched a step closer to preventing further terrorist atrocities like we saw 3 weeks ago.

It's easy to forget that Israel is under attack from 3 fronts, north, east and south. The axis of Iran, Russia and China are powerful and arguably more powerful than the combined west. If that axis turns nasty in support of their own geopolitical aims then we potentially have WW3 and that won't end well for anyone let alone Israel.

This is an existential threat for Israel but also potentially the world, it goes beyond the whole question of Palestine and that kind of thing. A peaceful future will only come through dialogue and not violence. That violence could escalate into the worst kind imaginable and that's why all parties need to think twice about their next actions.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Israel is a democratic country, it can be held to account however it can't be held to account whilst under attack. It has declared a unitary government, war and state of emergency. Nothing except further violence is going to happen whilst this situation continues.

The violence has to stop on both sides, a humanitarian ceasefire is critical and Hamas must be part of that unless you're asking for a double standard where Israel accepts a ceasefire which only applies to itself? And seriously why would any country ever agree to that?

Both should bilaterally declare a ceasefire now so that electricity, aid, water and critical supplies can be brought into Gaza. The political battles must then be fought around tables where they should be. If that is refused for violence then I would totally agree that Israel, Hamas or anyone else must be held to account for its actions.

The ceasefire was called by for by Palestinian allies at the UN. It's unlikely Hamas isn't going to comply with it if it happens. It's a bit far fetched to expect them to stop when Israel is still attacking them.

 

[Bradley82]

Exactly.

That's a question for the terrorism apologists and military experts on here.

I served in the British army and I can tell you that they are targeting civilians with those strikes too there is no way on earth there are anywhere near enough Positively Identifiable Hamas targets for the amount of ordnance being used. Perhaps if they concentrated on legitimate targets alone they could neutralise the rocket threat. If not then conduct intelligence led SF raids along side that. Of course seeking dialogue with Hamas is the best option. It suited Mr Netanyahu in the past when it served a purpose for him.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

The ceasefire was called by for by Palestinian allies at the UN. It's unlikely Hamas isn't going to comply with it if it happens. It's a bit far fetched to expect them to stop when Israel is still attacking them.

The Hamas political wing were apparently completely in the dark about Oct 7th. What makes you think they would have any sway over their military arm if they negotiated a truce or ceasefire?

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

The Hamas political wing were apparently completely in the dark about Oct 7th. What makes you think they would have any sway over their military arm if they negotiated a truce or ceasefire?

Have the military wing willingly released hostages?

Doesn't that prove that they are willing to obey by agreements when concessions are achieved?

Why would they continue to attack Israel when a ceasefire and humanitarian assistance was agreed? Especially when that results in them being wiped out.

 

[inbetween]

The ceasefire was called by for by Palestinian allies at the UN. It's unlikely Hamas isn't going to comply with it if it happens. It's a bit far fetched to expect them to stop when Israel is still attacking them.

Jesus christ.

Israel is attacking Hamas because on the 7th October Hamas terrorists walked into Israel and murdered over 1000 people, they still hold 100's of hostages right this second now.

And you're arguing that Hamas will stop if Israel stops and you're expecting for Hamas to abide by international law and UN resolutions.

I'm not sure what you've smoked but I definitely don't want any of it....

 

[Ducado]

Not responsible but actively supported.
Google Grand Mufti Haj Amin el Husseini and his association with Hitler.
Hamas aren’t the first Palestinians that supported killing all the Jews.

To be fair you could say the same about a number of countries, occupied France for example, the police rounded up Jews with relish, and let’s not forget our new best buddies the Ukrainians, who wholeheartedly went along with the mass murder of 100s of thousands of Jews and many were very enthusiastic to say the least, as well as the Baltics and Poland, but do we really want get into the sins of our fathers game?

People in the past did alsorts of things, The Romans in Dacia the first recorded genocide, the Normans with the harrowing of the north a genocide in itself

Hatred springs up in theses conflicts, it shouldn’t surprise anyone, but hatred can be turned into peaceful coexistence, but by killing thousands of innocent civilians you tend to encourage it

 

[arbabarshad]

They've been a terrorist state from the beginning. Israel doesn't respect laws and norms of international law or the boundaries of other countries.

The only reason Israel does not respect international law is because they know they can get away with being a terrorist state.

If Israel thought they'd lose a civilian for every civilian they killed, they'd never commit the terrorist acts they are committing.

 

[Eebo]

If they wipe Hamas out, or their ability to carry out acts of terror, then their security situation will have improved significantly.

I'm staggered (although maybe I shouldn't be) that a number of posters would seemingly prefer a terror group to retain its capacity to inflict deaths and injury on a democratic nation, rather than have that ability removed from them. It's almost like logic gets turned on its head when Jews are involved.

I'm sorry PB, maybe it is borne out of frustration and emotion, but that is a very poor post by your standard.

The Hamas atrocity that started this cost 2,000 innocent Israel lives and is terrorism at its most brutal.

The Israeli retaliation may have killed a number of Hamas fighters or militants, but it has also cost many thousands of Palestinian lives, and is just as brutal. Just because it is a bomb fired from distance by a democratic country doesn't mean it is not an act of terror

Once you start killing innocent people/civilians on this scale you lose the moral high ground and public sympathy for the original act of terror you suffered.

You say Israel will be more secure if it wipes out Hamas, but how many civilian lives in Gaza will that cost?

We are at 7,000 already so the number is going to be enormous. The implication above is that you have completely discounted this cost of Palestinian civilian lives as a price well worth paying for Israeli security.

Given that the 2,000 deaths from the Hamas atrocity is the biggest loss of life ever suffered by Israel from Hamas activities, the cost in civilian lives to achieve the result you want is going to be many times what we have already seen, and seems completely disproportionate to what Hamas are able to inflict on Israel.

Hamas may say it wants to wipe out Israel, but if it does not have the capability to do it then it is just talk. Do you really believe that Hamas can wipe Israel out? If so why has it not done more than it has? Israel actually has the capability to wipe out every civilian in Gaza, and at the moment it looks like it is quite prepared to do that.

And, if it involves killing say 50,000 or 100,000 or more Gazan civilians, would wiping out Hamas actually make Israel more secure? There are more powerful players than Hamas in the Middle East and a bloodbath like that could unleash a different level of threat.

People have to be free to question what Israel is doing without being accused of being against Jews.

 

[Mon Autre]

I have not said once that Israel has a right to kill thousands of people, I repeat that Israel must stop bombing Gaza.

However look at the chain of events, Israel is bombing Gaza because Israel was attacked by Hamas and remains under attack from Hamas. If Hamas stops then Israel will stop too and the war ends. I want both to stop, you just want one side to stop.

I'm not going to bother answering your reasoning around Iron Dome and the rocket attacks which threaten Israeli's daily, it's actually moronic.

Hamas or no Hamas, Netanyahu will never end the apartheid that Palestinian people are currently subjected to and he will never stop bulldozing Palestinian villages. He continually breaks international law with impunity. He also doesn't want to see a group representing the Palestinian people who are focused on peaceful negotiation as that might actually bring us closer to having a Palestinian state. He wants Hamas there and he has actively propped up their existence as he knows that so long as they're in charge, the advancement of a Palestinian state is impossible. That's his highest context.

 

[Ducado]

Jesus christ.

Israel is attacking Hamas because on the 7th October Hamas terrorists walked into Israel and murdered over 1000 people, they still hold 100's of hostages right this second now.

And you're arguing that Hamas will stop if Israel stops and you're expecting for Hamas to abide by international law and UN resolutions.

I'm not sure what you've smoked but I definitely don't want any of it....

Whose the democracy here? Who aspires to be an equal country in the eyes of the world

You seem wrapped up in a vengeance cycle, it’s a vetting Middle Eastern thing, no one ever forgets or forgives, and on we go I hope your blood lust gets sated over the next few days, just remember the traumatised children are the next generation of terrorists

Sleep well

 

[Mr Fraser]

Scotland’s first minister says he has lost contact with his family in Gaza

‘We can only pray they survive the night’

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Jesus christ.

Israel is attacking Hamas because on the 7th October Hamas terrorists walked into Israel and murdered over 1000 people, they still hold 100's of hostages right this second now.

And you're arguing that Hamas will stop if Israel stops and you're expecting for Hamas to abide by international law and UN resolutions.

I'm not sure what you've smoked but I definitely don't want any of it....

If Israel wants to get hostages back alive I'm not sure the military action they are pursuing is likely to achieve that.

Make deals for their release and no one needs to die in bloody operations. If Israel keeps blowing up buildings they'll eventually kill the hostages hidden inside some of them.

If Israel tries to get them back, Hamas will kill the hostages.

So we know that Israel isn't prioritising the safe release of hostages.

Hamas has already proved they are willing to make deals, because they released hostages.

Enough people have died, Israel has shown strength. It's time to negotiate.

 

[Username Required]

Article from Russia Today reporting that a senior Hamas political leader based in Lebanon claims surprise that the USA has been as robust as it has been in its support for Israel and America's actions so far. The RT article is based on original reporting in the Financial Times.

US ‘entering battle’ in Gaza – Hamas

A senior member of Hamas has said the Palestinian militant group was surprised by America’s reaction to recent fighting in Gaza

www.rt.com

Archive Today link to FT article "Hamas leaders surprised by US ‘going into battle’".

https://archive.ph/rbGcK

 

[arbabarshad]

I'm sorry PB, maybe it is borne out of frustration and emotion, but that is a very poor post by your standard.

The Hamas atrocity that started this cost 2,000 innocent Israel lives and is terrorism at its most brutal.

The Israeli retaliation may have killed a number of Hamas fighters or militants, but it has also cost many thousands of Palestinian lives, and is just as brutal. Just because it is a bomb fired from distance by a democratic country doesn't mean it is not an act of terror

Once you start killing innocent people/civilians on this scale you lose the moral high ground and public sympathy for the original act of terror you suffered.

You say Israel will be more secure if it wipes out Hamas, but how many civilian lives in Gaza will that cost?

We are at 7,000 already so the number is going to be enormous. The implication above is that you have completely discounted this cost of Palestinian civilian lives as a price well worth paying for Israeli security.

Given that the 2,000 deaths from the Hamas atrocity is the biggest loss of life ever suffered by Israel from Hamas activities, the cost in civilian lives to achieve the result you want is going to be many times what we have already seen, and seems completely disproportionate to what Hamas are able to inflict on Israel.

Hamas may say it wants to wipe out Israel, but if it does not have the capability to do it then it is just talk. Do you really believe that Hamas can wipe Israel out? If so why has it not done more than it has? Israel actually has the capability to wipe out every civilian in Gaza, and at the moment it looks like it is quite prepared to do that.

And, if it involves killing say 50,000 or 100,000 or more Gazan civilians, would wiping out Hamas actually make Israel more secure? There are more powerful players than Hamas in the Middle East and a bloodbath like that could unleash a different level of threat.

People have to be free to question what Israel is doing without being accused of being against Jews.

The bold will ensure that not only Israel is less secure but the countries supporting Israel (specially Europe) will end up paying in some form or another over the next few years. That's a lesson from the history and human nature.

 

[Bradley82]

You know, it's not like Blazin' Squad "Hello, is that Hamas? This is Israel. How about meeting on the playing fields at 2 o'clock with baseball bats and chains?"

Hamas are deliberately hiding in, and operating from, civilian areas. The IDF has given warnings that the northern part of the Gaza Strip was going to be attacked and it has been. Hamas ordered people to stay put. A refugee convoy was attacked on a "safe" route and logic suggests it was Hamas who did that (although we don't know for sure).

Hamas has never given two shits about the civilian population of Gaza. They've been happy to hide behind and among them. As I've said before, while it's terrible to see all the civilian deaths, actions have consequences. Once Hamas carried out the atrocities three weeks ago, the consequences were pretty inevitable.

Firstly, I've no idea what you're going on about in the first paragraph.
In your next para.
They were told to leave northern Gaza, that's against the international law in itself then they continued to bomb southern Gaza.
Of course they are operating out of Gaza and in civilian areas, that would be because it's a small area and is mostly urban and nobody can leave which is blatantly obvious. You've no proof that Hamas ordered people to stay put and tens of thousands didn't heed it if they did. Logic suggests that Hamas attacked their own civilians in a refugee lorry. Some logic that.
And your last paragraph you condone war crimes committed by Israel as inevitable.

 

[Ducado]

We are at the point where Western Governments start getting queasy, the sight of children been killed and injured tends to turn public opinion, may be one of the reasons they blew up the communications links, they no the Americans despite the rhetoric have not got the stomach for it, and the phone call will be made

They have also got to think of strategic interests, every innocent person killed is a propaganda hit for the Iranians who are fast taking leadership of the Muslim street, I would say it’s doing wonders for them

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

It's genocide. Call it what it is.

The Palestinian population has quintupled in the last 50 years, from 1m to around 5m. Funny sort of genocide.

 

[Vic]

Not the first time you've quoted an individual opinion from many years ago and claimed it as some sort of overarching truth. It's an opinion, nothing more. I doubt you've ever been to Israel, or even know many, if any, Jews.

I could stand outside one of the local synagogues at the end of today's Sabbath morning service and ask everyone coming out their opinions on the subject, and I'd get a variety of those. I might agree with some of them and I might vehemently disagree with others. None of those opinions are "right" and (apart from anyone who thinks that Israel should literally commit genocide and wipe out everyone in Gaza), none will be "wrong".

And I could have stood outside a local mosque yesterday after lunchtime prayers and done the same thing. I suspect the opinions will have been a different shade but there might well have been a wide range from "Good for Hamas, the Jews had it coming" to "Hamas don't help the Muslim cause by their brutality".

They're individual opinions.

It's an opinion by one of the "founding fathers" of Zionism. I've highlighted it simply because most Zionists (of his time) seem to have been largely silent on what should happen to the Arab inhabitants of the land. Herzl said nothing in "The Jewish State" (1896) but later (after actually visiting Palestine) envisioned in his utopian novel "The Old-New Land" that Jewish enterprise and prosperity would mean Arabs would willingly come on board with the idea of a Jewish but multicultural state.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

My suggestion to what they should do in that case is, adhere to the Geneva convention and act accordingly within those boundaries in their response

The 3rd Article of the Geneva Convention, which regulates these sorts of asymmetric conflicts explicitly forbids the taking of hostages.

I've not seen many demanding Hamas also respects it.