Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

Ducado said:
End game? Well the plan is to get rid of Hamas but most people doubt it can be done by force, apart from that who knows, there doesn’t appear to be a plan in place

Noted that the Americans told them to turn communications back on, and they complied, this will end when it gets too painful for the Americans I think we are close to that point, they have lots of dominoes that could fall, and all this conflict is doing is making Iran stronger and more popular in the region I sense a whiff of panic now, Blinkin is trying to sooth the Turks no doubt he will be hot footing it around the region again
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That's the way it looks, but I can't imagine the Israelis started this without a clear idea in mind about what they wanted to achieve. Maybe I am wrong and they have just responded wildly and emotionally. I am not sure that that is better for a country that supposedly has nuclear weapons, to be honest.
 
Ducado said:
End game? Well the plan is to get rid of Hamas but most people doubt it can be done by force, apart from that who knows, there doesn’t appear to be a plan in place

Noted that the Americans told them to turn communications back on, and they complied, this will end when it gets too painful for the Americans I think we are close to that point, they have lots of dominoes that could fall, and all this conflict is doing is making Iran stronger and more popular in the region I sense a whiff of panic now, Blinkin is trying to sooth the Turks no doubt he will be hot footing it around the region again
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The Americans know the consequences of taking out a regime without having a plan for when that is achieved and now the Israel's are doing exactly the same.

What Hamas did on the 7th was appalling and horrific but so is this response from Israel, not only for the Palestinians but for the whole world.

There must be a lot of Jews the world over who are now very worried about what is going to happen to them and possible reprisals/hatred towards them and that also applies to the population of any nation that gives FULL support for Israel.
 
Ducado said:
Just as an aside I know you are passionate about The Ukraine war and I tend to agree with many of your points

However in WW2 the Ukrainians killed more Jews than Palestinians have ever done, yes I understand they were occupied by the Germans but many 1000s were implicated most were never brought to justice many lived out their days in comfort
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Wonderful Whataboutary!
I should point out that the Zionist movement was spawned from Russian Pogroms.
 
Hamas not allowing forreigners to leave Gaza.
Sky, ABC, CNN, Independent, Telegraph.
They need their human shields.
 
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Ducado said:
End game? Well the plan is to get rid of Hamas but most people doubt it can be done by force, apart from that who knows, there doesn’t appear to be a plan in place

Noted that the Americans told them to turn communications back on, and they complied, this will end when it gets too painful for the Americans I think we are close to that point, they have lots of dominoes that could fall, and all this conflict is doing is making Iran stronger and more popular in the region I sense a whiff of panic now, Blinkin is trying to sooth the Turks no doubt he will be hot footing it around the region again
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Just because there doesn't appear to be a plan in place doesn't mean that none exists. The Israeli's are hardly going to divulge their operations, tactics and strategy to all and sundry. One thing emerging from the press briefings is this repeated "long war" comment. It says to me they aren't going to let this one go.
 
Roachy said:
Just because there doesn't appear to be a plan in place doesn't mean that none exists. The Israeli's are hardly going to divulge their operations, tactics and strategy to all and sundry. One thing emerging from the press briefings is this repeated "long war" comment. It says to me they aren't going to let this one go.
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People don't seem to want to believe that, but as you say it could very well be true.
 
Roachy said:
Just because there doesn't appear to be a plan in place doesn't mean that none exists. The Israeli's are hardly going to divulge their operations, tactics and strategy to all and sundry. One thing emerging from the press briefings is this repeated "long war" comment. It says to me they aren't going to let this one go.
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Genocidal intent?
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
Genocidal intent?
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Yours and a few others go to word on here to enhance their argument. If Israel perpetrate such an act then they need to be held to account accordingly and I will fully support this. Having bore witness to a well documented genocide in 1994, I hate the very existence of that word.
 
Roachy said:
Just because there doesn't appear to be a plan in place doesn't mean that none exists. The Israeli's are hardly going to divulge their operations, tactics and strategy to all and sundry. One thing emerging from the press briefings is this repeated "long war" comment. It says to me they aren't going to let this one go.
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It's a really good question to ask why should they let it go? They were attacked on the 7th October and thousands of Israeli's were killed. That's a gamechanger and the fact it happened means that it could happen again at some point in the future.

Therefore Israel has decided to remove Hamas and that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is their tactics and the inevitability of how difficult it is going to be. The reality of removal of Hamas requires a ground campaign but any ground campaign is going to be impossible. This isn't because it's so dangerous but rather because the Gaza Strip is 3x larger in area than Manchester.

The IDF is going to have to move in armour which could itself be impossible and then it will need to knock on every single door from north to south. It's a cross between the Ukraine and Iraq wars where instead of fighting in fields in Ukraine they're fighting in a densely populated city centre as in Iraq. The relentless bombing campaign at the moment could be an act to pave the way and loosen things up for the ground campaign but it's hard to say whether it will have any effect.

A secondary problem with eliminating Hamas is the fact that the Hamas leadership is not in Gaza. The key Hamas leadership is in Qatar or Turkey so Israel can't exactly cut the head off the snake so to speak although Mossad are known their own methods! This is perhaps where diplomatic and economic pressure from the US may be required but that's where a WW3 scenario starts to become quite possible.

Personally I think all efforts should be put on getting a ceasefire and then it's just how do you isolate Hamas diplomatically. I actually think that we need to work with countries such as Iran to resolve past differences. The curveball is that we could easily isolate Iran through heavy sanctions but like Russia they will continue to hate us and end up propped up by China. Dealing with Chinese influence is clearly a completely different beast.
 
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Roachy said:
Just because there doesn't appear to be a plan in place doesn't mean that none exists. The Israeli's are hardly going to divulge their operations, tactics and strategy to all and sundry. One thing emerging from the press briefings is this repeated "long war" comment. It says to me they aren't going to let this one go.
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It's already been a long war! Started in 1948
 
Roachy said:
Yours and a few others go to word on here to enhance their argument. If Israel perpetrate such an act then they need to be held to account accordingly and I will fully support this. Having bore witness to a well documented genocide in 1994, I hate the very existence of that word.
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It's just the logical reading of the situation. Where is the food, water and safe haven?

They continue to kill people in the thousands and are not allowing sufficient supplies for people to live, to get in.

It's not hyperbole to suggest that they are doing it by design or just a disregard for Palestinian civilian life.

Nobody cares about enhancing arguments. When people in comfortable lives in the West start apologising for mass killings and excusing apartheid there isn't an argument worth having.
 
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Mon Autre said:
Hamas or no Hamas, Netanyahu will never end the apartheid that Palestinian people are currently subjected to and he will never stop bulldozing Palestinian villages. He continually breaks international law with impunity. He also doesn't want to see a group representing the Palestinian people who are focused on peaceful negotiation as that might actually bring us closer to having a Palestinian state. He wants Hamas there and he has actively propped up their existence as he knows that so long as they're in charge, the advancement of a Palestinian state is impossible. That's his highest context.
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I read about the apartheid stuff quite a lot on social media.
But the facts on ground paints a different picture.
Apartheid is defined as "separating or setting apart".
Now the facts:
Israel has an Arab population of more than 20% with full voting and citizenship rights. Same laws applies to all. A former PM was sent to jail by an Arab judge recently. Israel is a multi ethnic society.

Also, many thousands of Gazans cross the border every day to work in Israel. Some sources cited around 70,000. Does this look like apartheid?

Every country has a right to secure their borders. Just like Egypt and Israel has done with Gaza.

I ask the op to please specify the reasons why he thinks Israel is an apartheid state. We can then apply the same criteria on all Arab states in the Middle East before drawing a conclusion.
 
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