Middle East Conflict

I've posted this elsewhere before but I think it bears repeating...

I think it is bang out of order that the BBC continually refer to Hamas as "Hamas, which is regarded by the UK as a terrorist organisation". It's like every TV article they have to add that suffix.

I am not saying Hamas is NOT a terrorist organisation, but why did the BBC never feel the need to describe e.g. the IRA in such a way? Or the Taliban, or ISIS?

It seems to me that the BBC is being leaned upon by our government to try to sway public opinion in favour of Israel, irrespective of the disproportionality and potential illegality of Israel's attacks. I hope I am wrong but it certainly feels like that is the case.
 
Postman Pep said:
Trusted sources like an IDF spox and a Likud war cabinet member. Lmfao.
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It was on the fucking news - somthing to watch/listen too to understand where politicians are on this war.
It's absolutely clear that Hamas's actions against israel are the equivalent of shoving a stick in a beehive.
 
BlueAnorak said:
Ah insults.
Enjoy dancing on the eye of a needle.
the bottom line is you don't think Israel has the right to defend itself.
I think it has but it has gone to far in targeting Hamas leaders amongst Palestinian civilians.
That said, it won't stop this time till Hamas is defeated - and that is the view of the isreali Labour party as well. All mainstream political parties believe this is a war of survival. Are they right? The balance of probabilities probably says yes they are.
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I’m not insulting you, I’m genuinely concerned about the clear signs of cognitive dissonance and sociopathic traits that you’ve shown throughout this thread.

There’s a big difference between Israel defending itself and committing outright genocide. Even in the unlikely event Israel get rid of Hamas, the atrocities they’ve committed while doing so will not be forgotten and the next iteration will be far worse. You’re just too blinkered to see that living under occupation, being dehumanised on a daily basis, and seeing your loved ones slaughtered would cause mental illness and violence in anyone. Yet you only focus only on the violent outcomes from these people. If you look at any historically oppressed peoples they'll have violently lashed out at some point.

If you can say you’d never resort to extreme violence after having your home destroyed, your entire family wiped out then you’re a fool or a liar. It's enough to cause anyone serious psychological issues. Does it excuse Hamas killing innocents, hell no, but context is critical.

Regarding the political parties in this country, these are the same mainstream parties that sanctioned the war in Iraq under false pretences, and countless other scandals… yeah real bastions of morality them!

Like me and many others have stated little Rishi and Co. have blood on their hands and fully complicit in the Israeli war crimes we see unfolding. Their moral compass is broken and so is anyone else’s that excuses the collective punishment we’re witnessing.
 
Chippy_boy said:
I've posted this elsewhere before but I think it bears repeating...

I think it is bang out of order that the BBC continually refer to Hamas as "Hamas, which is regarded by the UK as a terrorist organisation". It's like every TV article they have to add that suffix.

I am not saying Hamas is NOT a terrorist organisation, but why did the BBC never feel the need to describe e.g. the IRA in such a way? Or the Taliban, or ISIS?

It seems to me that the BBC is being leaned upon by our government to try to sway public opinion in favour of Israel, irrespective of the disproportionality and potential illegality of Israel's attacks. I hope I am wrong but it certainly feels like that is the case.
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Wasn’t Osama Bin Laden hiding in Pakistan and wasn’t he funded by Saudi’s? Hell! Qatar is sheltering Hamas leaders and the West gave them a World Cup!

The media have and are turning themselves into knots to make this a black/white issue and fortunately many people are rightfully raising their eyebrows…

Edit: typos
 
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BayernMan said:
Wasn’t Osama Bin Laden hiding in Pakistan and wasn’t he funded by Saudi’s? Hell! Qatar is shelling Hamas leaders and the West gave them a World Cup!

The media have and are turning themselves into knots to make this a black/white issue and fortunately many people are rightfully raising their eyebrows…
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And you can add the government into that mix. How on earth is a peaceful march, urging for a ceasefire, "disrepectful"??? to those commemorating Armistice Day?

Armistice was after all, an agreement to end the fighting of the First World War as a prelude to peace negotiations.

I would have thought a peace march was HIGHLY appropriate, not something to be the subject of scorn by Sunak and Braverman.

IMO this whole situation is so politically corrupt, it absolutely stinks.
 
Chippy_boy said:
And you can add the government into that mix. How on earth is a peaceful march, urging for a ceasefire, "disrepectful"??? to those commemorating Armistice Day?

Armistice was after all, an agreement to end the fighting of the First World War as a prelude to peace negotiations.

I would have thought a peace march was HIGHLY appropriate, not something to be the subject of scorn by Sunak and Braverman.

IMO this whole situation is so politically corrupt, it absolutely stinks.
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It stinks alright.
 
Bluemoon_420 said:
I’m not insulting you, I’m genuinely concerned about the clear signs of cognitive dissonance and sociopathic traits that you’ve shown throughout this thread.

There’s a big difference between Israel defending itself and committing outright genocide. Even in the unlikely event Israel get rid of Hamas, the atrocities they’ve committed while doing so will not be forgotten and the next iteration will be far worse. You’re just too blinkered to see that living under occupation, being dehumanised on a daily basis, and seeing your loved ones slaughtered would cause mental illness and violence in anyone. Yet you only focus only on the violent outcomes from these people. If you look at any historically oppressed peoples they'll have violently lashed out at some point.

If you can say you’d never resort to extreme violence after having your home destroyed, your entire family wiped out then you’re a fool or a liar. It's enough to cause anyone serious psychological issues. Does it excuse Hamas killing innocents, hell no, but context is critical.

Regarding the political parties in this country, these are the same mainstream parties that sanctioned the war in Iraq under false pretences, and countless other scandals… yeah real bastions of morality them!

Like me and many others have stated little Rishi and Co. have blood on their hands and fully complicit in the Israeli war crimes we see unfolding. Their moral compass is broken and so is anyone else’s that excuses the collective punishment we’re witnessing.
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I'm fine - I am just a realist.
Hamas really shouldn't of done what it did if it didn't want any come-back.
They did and the come-back is upon them. Israel has the right to stop Hamas.
It is fucking horrible what is happening to Civilians close to israeli Hamas targets - but Hamas do use Civilians as human shields.
Regardless of what I think though, Israeli politicians (all Jewish parties) truely believe this is an existential threat to Israel's existence and as such it will probably continue, whatever I, you or the collective West think.
I'm not even sure the US could stop them any time soon as the rage in Israel is palpable. Only the evacuation of Hamas fighters somewhere out of Gaza would work and I don't think Hamas would agree to that and I'm not sure any one would agree to take them.
 
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BlueAnorak said:
Ah insults.
Enjoy dancing on the eye of a needle.
the bottom line is you don't think Israel has the right to defend itself.
I think it has but it has gone to far in targeting Hamas leaders amongst Palestinian civilians.
That said, it won't stop this time till Hamas is defeated - and that is the view of the isreali Labour party as well. All israeli mainstream political parties believe this is a war of survival. Are they right? The balance of probabilities probably says yes they are for if Hamas gains as a result Hezbollah will pile in next.
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But don't you see? Following your logic, if Hezbollah do get involved because of a disproportionate response in Gaza, it will be Israel's fault. Or does it only work one way?

There is always so much to unpack in your posts, I am not sure it's worth the effort. But I will try.

No-one thinks Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself. But within international law. And what they have done in terms of cutting off water, electricity, food and medicine and the indiscriminate bombing of civilian and protected areas isn't.

Where are we now with Hamas? Are they to be eliminated or just defeated? The justification for what the Israelis are doing was to eliminate Hamas, which to me was always an unattainable goal. 10,000 lives just to "defeat" Hamas? They must have a real great plan for Gaza that doesn't create something worse out of the killing and destruction.

This as a war for survival because if Hamas gains, Hezbollah will pile in? If that was really an issue, then the Israelis should have been more circumspect about how they "defeat" Hamas. There were other alternatives which could achieve the objective if that had been a real concern. It's just nonsense to keep the Israeli public (those that count, anyway) with them.

All imho, of course.
 
BlueAnorak said:
I'm fine - I am just a realist.
Hamas really shouldn't of done what it did if it didn't want any come-back.
They did and the come-back is upon them. Israel has the right to stop Hamas.
It is fucking horrible what is happening to Civilians close to israeli Hamas targets - but Hamas do use Civilians as human shields.
Regardless of what I think though, Israeli politicians (all Jewish parties) truely believe this is an existential threat to Israel's existence and as such it will probably continue, whatever I, you or the collective West think.
I'm not even sure the US could stop them any time soon as the rage in Israel is palpable. Only the evacuation of Hamas fighters somewhere out of Gaza would work and I don't think Hamas would agree to that and I'm not sure any one would agree to take them.
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artworks-P6zjqIlw3DgAyJyP-CQSIFA-t500x500.jpg
 
halfcenturyup said:
But don't you see? Following your logic, if Hezbollah do get involved because of a disproportionate response in Gaza, it will be Israel's fault. Or does it only work one way?

There is always so much to unpack in your posts, I am not sure it's worth the effort. But I will try.

No-one thinks Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself. But within international law. And what they have done in terms of cutting off water, electricity, food and medicine and the indiscriminate bombing of civilian and protected areas isn't.

Where are we now with Hamas? Are they to be eliminated or just defeated? The justification for what the Israelis are doing was to eliminate Hamas, which to me was always an unattainable goal. 10,000 lives just to "defeat" Hamas? They must have a real great plan for Gaza that doesn't create something worse out of the killing and destruction.

This as a war for survival because if Hamas gains, Hezbollah will pile in? If that was really an issue, then the Israelis should have been more circumspect about how they "defeat" Hamas. There were other alternatives which could achieve the objective if that had been a real concern. It's just nonsense to keep the Israeli public (those that count, anyway) with them.

All imho, of course.
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Yes, I see it.
But Israel sees itself (way over 80% of the jewish population) as fighting a war for it's very existence. If Hezbollah joins in they will fight them too as they will see it as confirmation of it as a war for the existence of Israel.
Enemies of Israel will probably be in Rage mode too as a result of Israels OTT attacks that caught so many civilians as "collateral damage" (another horrible phrase).
These attacks aren't helping Isreal's friends defend their actions but at the moment I think that is the last thing on the IDF's agenda at the moment.
Rage is difficult to calm.
 
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The Israeli Government are saying the IDF have the leader of Hamas surrounded. He’s supposedly trapped in a bunker. If this is true then there could soon be at least one less terrorist in the world.
 
BlueAnorak said:
It is fucking horrible what is happening to Civilians close to israeli Hamas targets - but Hamas do use Civilians as human shields.
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Does that justify the killing of those civilians? Not in my book.

It's not as if it's "a few" civilians. Thousands upon thousands upon thousands of them. Its absolutely not on, under any circumstances. Those are not the actions of a supposed civilised state in the 21st century.
 
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