Middle East Conflict

Cheadle_hulmeBlue said:
That’s your reaction to a woman holding up placard where the Star of David is combined with a nazi symbol… are you joking or just anti semitic?

I’m sure that lady will say lol when she gets a police visit and sacked from her job… lol
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Meanwhile, he will be up in arms at someone singing England till I die.

I’m not defending fucking idiots here btw, just pointing out some of the rank hypocrisy on display yet again from anyone who thinks what that woman did was ok.
 
mexico1970 said:
Police are actively seeking Donatello and Michelangelo.

77700935-12740655-Police_are_also_actively_seeking_two_men_pictured_wearing_allege-a-15_1699818714726.jpg
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Come on, not one person on the march yesterday was either antisemitic or supporting Hamas.

Not one!
 
Ducado said:
there is absolutely no excuse for killing over 11 thousand civilians, sorry if that’s the price of reaching your objective your objective is wrong, plus it’s all counter productive it’s just breeding more hatred
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I never said there was an excuse for that.. but you can’t genuinely compare what’s happening now to what Nazi germany did.
You could maybe compare it to what the uk or USA did in the Middle East or at least debate the points around that

There’s no excuse for Hamas massacring innocent people or wanting to eradicate all Jewish people as well - I thought I would balance your point
 
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Prestwich_Blue said:
I'm not shutting down debate. I'm telling you that by failing to recognise and condemn antisemitism, by definition you're an antisemite. That's pretty disgusting.

The smart thing to have said was "I didn't realise that was defined as antisemitic" but you doubled down and made your position clear.
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Do you think is antisemitism tends to be ignored more than you’d like because too many are accused of it and that it’s a way of deflecting debate about the Israeli government‘s current “defence” of itself?

I’ve probably worded that wrongly, but I hope you can understand it.

It just seems to me that as the perpetual cycle of the conflict is debated, a heck of a lot of it is trying to define who and who isn’t an anti-semite, rather than trying discuss what needs to be done to solve the crisis.

It’s the same with Hamas vs Palestinians too. That gets chucked in inflame rhetoric too.
 
Alan Harper's Tash said:
Do you think is antisemitism tends to be ignored more than you’d like because too many are accused of it and that it’s a way of deflecting debate about the Israeli government‘s current “defence” of itself?

I’ve probably worded that wrongly, but I hope you can understand it.

It just seems to me that as the perpetual cycle of the conflict is debated, a heck of a lot of it is trying to define who and who isn’t an anti-semite, rather than trying discuss what needs to be done to solve the crisis.

It’s the same with Hamas vs Palestinians too. That gets chucked in inflame rhetoric too.
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Comparing Israel to Nazis is antisemitic according to the internatioally agreed definition. What do some people not get about that?
 
Alan Harper's Tash said:
Apologies, of course that is. I was talking more generally about how the whole conflict is debated.
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I've said it loads of times and it shouldn't need restating. Criticism of Israeli actions is quite acceptable but there's a line you don't cross. While the IHRA definition isn't definitive on all potential instances of antisemitism, comparison with Nazi Germany is.

If, when that's pointed out to you and you claim rules are meant to be broken or continue to double down, then I'm going to call it out.
 
Cheadle_hulmeBlue said:
I never said there was an excuse for that.. but you can’t genuinely compare what’s happening now to what Nazi germany did.
You could maybe compare it to what the uk or USA did in the Middle East or at least debate the points around that

There’s no excuse for Hamas massacring innocent people or wanting to eradicate all Jewish people as well - I thought I would balance your point
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11,000 in 3 weeks? We are talking about proportionality here, it does appear to be vengeance rather than collateral damage or at least a lack of care as long as the objective is met

Hamas is a terrorist movement no argument from me, can you tell me just how they were going to carry out their plans to eradicate all the Jews? With a few rusty Kalashnikovs and some anti tank rockets? They committed a terrible atrocity, but collective punishment is not the way forward

Since you have joined this debate, let’s talk about the West Bank rather than Gaza, can you tell me what Palestinians are meant to do, when they suffer daily oppression and murder from both the IDF and extreme right wing settler movements, hold hands and sing kumbyya? No one had answered this question, because the answer is too uncomfortable for most, because they know that the daily oppression and murder is just fueling this conflict and it seems to be quite deliberate

The extremists on both sides and that includes Jews as well as Palestinians both deserve sanction and their movements disbanding, not one more innocent person needs to die
 
There is no need to make a comparison of Israel to Nazi Germany. It’s a comparison that is wrong and offensive to those that were systematically exterminated in a cold, clinical manner and without provocation.

I disagree with the Israeli response and the needless deaths. It is also counterproductive and devoid of any long term plan or strategy. While Netanyahu and others like him remain in power there is no chance of any meaningful peace. The same is true of Hamas. They both feed off each other.
 
Ducado said:
11,000 in 3 weeks? We are talking about proportionality here, it does appear to be vengeance rather than collateral damage or at least a lack of care as long as the objective is met

Hamas is a terrorist movement no argument from me, can you tell me just how they were going to carry out their plans to eradicate all the Jews? With a few rusty Kalashnikovs and some anti tank rockets? They committed a terrible atrocity, but collective punishment is not the way forward

Since you have joined this debate, let’s talk about the West Bank rather than Gaza, can you tell me what Palestinians are meant to do, when they suffer daily oppression and murder from both the IDF and extreme right wing settler movements, hold hands and sing kumbyya? No one had answered this question, because the answer is too uncomfortable for most, because they know that the daily oppression and murder is just fueling this conflict and it seems to be quite deliberate

The extremists on both sides and that includes Jews as well as Palestinians both deserve sanction and their movements disbanding, not one more innocent person needs to die
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My main point was in response to someone comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, which is quite frankly ridiculous. I’m not trying to defend Israel.

You want me to set out exactly how Hamas plans to wipe out Israel?? Sure thing…. How would I know that? It’s probably not possible, but it’s one of their main reasons for existing. That’s pretty clear. A group like that shouldn’t exist.

“The extremists on both sides and that includes Jews as well as Palestinians”
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I agree with your last point. I probably wouldn’t say Jews and Palestinians. I think the isreali government and Hamas better describes the two groups carrying out attacks.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
I'm proud of the fact that when I'm walking around Manchester I can see people of many different nationalities who live and feel safe here. No one goes on marches in support of Kurds, Afghans, Rohingya, Uighurs, or the other displaced or persecuted people. Yet the Palestinians have been cynically used as pawns by the Arab world and people fall for it. Why are they a special case?
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Maybe because Israel is a Western-style democracy and people expect better, rightly or wrongly. Let's face it, Western policy in the Middle East and elsewhere over the last 30 years has been to "encourage" Western-style democracies. When such a democracy oppresses a people under its responsibility, we can hardly criticise other countries for oppressing their own populations, can we?
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
That the same Arab League who agreed not to give citizenship to Palestinian refugees? Fucking hypocrites.
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Missed out on that comment, more because of the 4-4 yesterday.

So, on the no citizenship given, That is a more complex and obfuscated situation than not agreeing. Upto 30% of Jordan is afterall Palestinian.

The end-result if Palestinians become permanent refugees to other countries is that Israel becomes a one-state as how Israel (at least from Netanyahu or Sharon’s ultimatum) wants it be, and Palestinian as a nationality becomes nullified, ceased to exist nay a story in history books.

The event of citizenry being pushed out as refugees, and the conqueror to conquer the land is a first in recent history.

There are countries that unite (e.g West and East Germany; Tangayika and Zanzibar, etc.)

There are countries that annexed (e.g Hawaii; Texas etc)

There are countries that split (e.g Czechoslovakia becomes Czech Rep and Slovakia, etc)

There are countries that change (e.g Siam to Thailand, Ceylon to Sri Lanka, East Pakistan to Bangladesh, etc)

None of the above have the nation’s people been evicted out in an exodus of refugees. The people are given first-class citizen rights.

On events when people being conquered and be given second-class citizens or even worse ethnically cleansed, there is the Arakan State (Rakhin State) which was meant to be the distinct state of Arakanese because they have been there for centuries. Arakanese were Rakhines and Rohingyans, But Rohingyans have been pushed out, and no other neighbouring state will want to provide citizenship, because in doing so, the Arakan and its Arakanese Rohingyans cease to exist.

Edit:

I include here the plight of Rohingyans who have (or used to have) their own state.

en.m.wikipedia.org

Rohingya genocide - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

Replace Rohingyans to Palestinians, and instead of arson and basic weapons, it’s bombing and gunshots, and instead of Rohingyan rebels with makeshift spears and machetes, it’s a militia with machine guns and makeshift bombs.
 
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I see here several are arguing about what is and what is not antisemitism, and on the IHRA.

As someone who hasn’t methodically scan through and conduct systematic or bibliometric review, which admittedly will take at least a year to digest based on high grade documents, I rather opt out of providing my own assumptions of it.

There are however, based on my 4 hours time spent searching and appraising from BibTex and Zotero using Scopus, GoogleScholar, Lawtel and other databases I have access to using OpenAthens I gathered around 200+ documents (excluding gray literature) on the subject of antisemitism of both for and against and pragmatized in between. Granted I’ve only browsed through synopses but around more than 50% of those do have reference to the Open Letter on growing Fascism for 1948 Israel.

Prior to 1948, 2 decades prior, anti-semitism is there, but so is fascism. Here's a clipping of what transpired:

On page 3, Albert Einstein (as always repeatedly) suggested against the creation of the State of Israel (he further asserted in 1948 that Begin was overreaching Palestine). Right after Einstein's part, the news of Haifa Arab killing (not a first as there had been previous) of 3 Jews killing an Arab, including a bombing of Arab Cafe Haifaa which killed another Arab, and of another bombing in International Restaurant Jerusalem, which injured a young Arab.

<iframe id="iframepdf" src="http://pdfs.jta.org/1938/1938-04-19_016.pdf"></iframe>

Also in just this one newspaper, is of Auni Bey Abdul Hadi, the palestinian leader who was banished to re-enter Palestine. Several events he was involved in, including the revolt against the new Jew uprising. In 1935 Palestine Arabs were unloading bins on Jaffa Ports, but when one bin destined for Haganah (Israeli's main military brigade, now the IDF) spilled over a large cache of 400+ guns and rifles and hundreds and thousands of ammunitions, Palestine Arabs concluded that Jews were preparing for the takeover of Palestine. This instigation to fully colonize Palestine as the Promised Land by force was of great concern of not just the Arab Palestine, but several other Arab countries. In 1935.

It is not on a whim that the 1948 Israeli-Arab War eventually happened. If Israel, as how Einstein and many other true Zionists preferred, to have a peaceful Arab state instead of envisioning the ancestral land ideology, there wouldn't be as much hatred between the two-sides. Palestine Jews and Palestine Arabs.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
I'm not shutting down debate. I'm telling you that by failing to recognise and condemn antisemitism, by definition you're an antisemite. That's pretty disgusting.

The smart thing to have said was "I didn't realise that was defined as antisemitic" but you doubled down and made your position clear.
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Absolute tosh, and you know it.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
Comparing Israel to Nazis is antisemitic according to the internatioally agreed definition. What do some people not get about that?
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What happened on the 7th was appalling, humanity at its very worst, what has happened since is equally as bad.

Israel has gone too far, this now is simply bloody revenge and religious bigotry, bombing 1/2 a city into the ground with it 1000s of kids.

Israel is constantly playing the victim card, it simply has to look at itself and it's actions, it is going to bring years of issues for its population within and outside it's borders for decades and maybe for good reason.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
I'm not shutting down debate. I'm telling you that by failing to recognise and condemn antisemitism, by definition you're an antisemite. That's pretty disgusting.

The smart thing to have said was "I didn't realise that was defined as antisemitic" but you doubled down and made your position clear.
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I am a little uneasy with this talk of the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism. While the list certainly includes things someone who is anti-Semitic may say or do, I am not sure it works the other way: that someone who says or does some of those things is, by definition, anti-Semitic. It certainly doesn't work that way in law in the UK, for example. There is no offence (or definition) of anti-Semitism in UK law. Unless I am wrong, which is entirely possible, of course, the offence would fall under hate crime legislation which also has to consider motivation.

Put it this way, if there was a similar definition of anti-Palestinianism, anti-Arabism or Islamophobia (take your pick), the joke you made earlier about suicide bombers could fall under two of the corresponding activities described in the definition. Should you be prosecuted? Should you lose your livelihood, as some people on here have been saying about the idiot woman with the stupid placard? Should you be labelled an Islamophobe? Of course not.

It all goes too far, imho.
 
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