What has the UK become under the far right influence?

Alan Harper's Tash said:
It doesn’t work like that though, as CIL explained before. The Vienna convention applies.
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I don't want go get involved with Rumpole of the Bailey:-) we are discussing what we think should happen. If we are going off laws and conventions then why discuss it at all. The courts will sort it.
 
hilts said:
I don't want go get involved with Rumpole of the Bailey:-) we are discussing what we think should happen. If we are going off laws and conventions then why discuss it at all. The courts will sort it.
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They will once our government recognise international laws again!
 
Alan Harper's Tash said:
Less standing, cooperation and trust. Less willingness to make trade deals etc.
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Haha so no penalty at all, we know how the countries of the glorious United nations act during conflicts and human rights abuses.
Countries tend to do what the fuck is in their best interests. Anyhow if we are breaking international law we can get back to following it again.

Like Mexico said the law itself needs looking at because it isn't really fit for purpose in 2024 imho.

One doesn't need to be held to a law forever otherwise no new law would ever be written.

Personally a law that says you have the right to leave a safe country and pick any country you want is a bit bonkers. No one else in the world gets that right. And any law that doesn't have safeguards for sheer numbers is sadly lacking in foresight tbh.
 
hilts said:
Haha so no penalty at all, we know how the countries of the glorious United nations act during conflicts and human rights abuses.
Countries tend to do what the fuck is in their best interests. Anyhow if we are breaking international law we can get back to following it again.

Like Mexico said the law itself needs looking at because it isn't really fit for purpose in 2024 imho.

One doesn't need to be held to a law forever otherwise no new law would ever be written.

Personally a law that says you have the right to leave a safe country and pick any country you want is a bit bonkers. No one else in the world gets that right. And any law that doesn't have safeguards for sheer numbers is sadly lacking in foresight tbh.
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The alternative is a race to the bottom, probably ending in world war when someone takes the piss and goes too far.

We live in interesting times where people are deciding that lawlessness is okay if it means their way is got.
 
The Light Was Yellow Sir said:
They’ve gone after the international students now. Is there no end to their populist, xenophobic ravings?
International students can no longer bring any dependents with them AND they’re reviewing to 2 year work visa they currently get when completing their degrees.
Staggeringly incompetent even for this lot of charlatans, which is really saying something..
Knock on effect will be fewer places for locals, higher and higher fees, even more loss of ‘soft power’, a further diminution of our place in the world and, yet again, a loss of income/reduction in GDP.
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I posted it earlier in the thread, take a look at the salary requirements for new entrants and those on existing Tier 2 Visas if you're not on the massively reduced shortage occupation list.
Can't go into details but there are a number where I work who are on Tier 2 visas, engineers with around 2yrs post grad experience. For them to legally remain when they renew their visa their salary will have to be a minimum of £57k.
 
Alan Harper's Tash said:
The alternative is a race to the bottom, probably ending in world war when someone takes the piss and goes too far.

We live in interesting times where people are deciding that lawlessness is okay if it means their way is got.
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Has it ever been different? You will not get fairness from govts because well they need to get elected. Im amazed the Rwanda nonsense has got this far.

Is there a country on this earth that totally shuns the Saudis Chinese or the Russians for example If there is money in it they will do business. Whatever the law the truth is countries don't want or cannot sell big numbers of immigration. And the right to choose a country is a little against the spirit of saving someone under threat tbh.
 
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hilts said:
Has it ever been different? You will not get fairness from govts because well they need to get elected. I amazed the Rwanda nonsense has got this far.

Is there a country on this earth that totally shuns the Saudis Chinese or the Russians for example If there is money in it they will do business. Whatever the law the truth is countries don't want or cannot sell big numbers of immigration. And the right to choose a country is a little against the spirit of saving someone under threat tbh.
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It also dilutes each country’s intake if a mass migration takes place.

Im not sure we’d be happy if we had to have the whole of Ireland have to resettle here (again ;-) ) if they had a civil war, as we’d be their only neighbouring country.
 
The Light Was Yellow Sir said:
They’ve gone after the international students now. Is there no end to their populist, xenophobic ravings?
International students can no longer bring any dependents with them AND they’re reviewing to 2 year work visa they currently get when completing their degrees.
Staggeringly incompetent even for this lot of charlatans, which is really saying something..
Knock on effect will be fewer places for locals, higher and higher fees, even more loss of ‘soft power’, a further diminution of our place in the world and, yet again, a loss of income/reduction in GDP.
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The experiment must be concluded, in quick time.
 
Chris in London said:
How can the law be improved?
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That would depend on ones point of view. Those who want a total open door policy would probably want stricter sanctions for countries who don't fulfil their obligations and within certain time limits.

Sane people like me:-) would prefer a system of unified processing centres where countries get to take roughly equal numbers. There should be an agreement though that emergency suspensions can be inacted.
 
hilts said:
That would depend on ones point of view. Those who want a total open door policy would probably want stricter sanctions for countries who don't fulfil their obligations and within certain time limits.

Sane people like me:-) would prefer a system of unified processing centres where countries get to take roughly equal numbers. There should be an agreement though that emergency suspensions can be inacted.
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Those aren’t changes to the law though. They’re changes to the way the existing law is applied.

Which is fair enough, but (a) that requires wider international cooperation (which we are not especially well placed to foster) and (b) requires substantially more funding than is currently available.

The reason I asked is that the current law requires each individual case to be judged on its own merits against the criteria set out in the Vienna convention. Calling for a change in the law suggests this simple process can be easily improved and the problem is not the law, it’s the resources that the government is willing to apply towards meeting its international obligations
 
Chris in London said:
Those aren’t changes to the law though. They’re changes to the way the existing law is applied.

Which is fair enough, but (a) that requires wider international cooperation (which we are not especially well placed to foster) and (b) requires substantially more funding than is currently available.

The reason I asked is that the current law requires each individual case to be judged on its own merits against the criteria set out in the Vienna convention. Calling for a change in the law suggests this simple process can be easily improved and the problem is not the law, it’s the resources that the government is willing to apply towards meeting its international obligations
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All I'm saying because i don't want to get into the legal details is that currently it's not working for us or other countries and most importantly genuine asylum seekers. It will need international co-operation and money. I can't see either happening.

The circus will continue as is.
 
BobKowalski said:
On the Rwanda scheme it seems they paid someone £3k plus airfare and board and lodgings for five years to go. Firstly, good luck to the person involved although I reckon they could have shook the Govt down for a larger up front payment and secondly, I don’t think paying and subsidising people to leave is going to be a deterrent- indeed for some it may be an incentive :)
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This seems unlikely because I thought the migrants were paying traffickers thousands of £ to get here?
 
Chris in London said:
Those aren’t changes to the law though. They’re changes to the way the existing law is applied.

Which is fair enough, but (a) that requires wider international cooperation (which we are not especially well placed to foster) and (b) requires substantially more funding than is currently available.

The reason I asked is that the current law requires each individual case to be judged on its own merits against the criteria set out in the Vienna convention. Calling for a change in the law suggests this simple process can be easily improved and the problem is not the law, it’s the resources that the government is willing to apply towards meeting its international obligations
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These international obligations do not apply until somebody sets foot on UK soil, there is therefore no real reason to expend resources to meet obligations that do not exist.

Ask yourself why migrants are living in makeshift camps in France/Calais and not in hotels for example once they arrive here?

It's because they haven't claimed asylum in France and as far as France is concerned they do not care at that point. A humane argument would be that France should house those people, but why should they if not obligated to do so?

If we make it difficult for people to set foot on UK soil then that doesn't mean that we are somehow breaking any obligations.
 
The kid knifed and killed in Hainault yesterday was on his way to the school he attends and where his mum is a teacher. That same school was formerly attended by Grace O'Malley - Kumar one of the two students knifed and killed in Nottingham last summer. They need to get proper help for the kids who attend that school because in effect two services for a pupil and ex-pupil in less than a year could have a shocking effect on some of those kids minds.
 
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