The Labour Government

Chippy_boy said:
So you're suggesting we've had even-handed policing and sentencing? If so, I think you are mistaken.

I am sure we can both find isolated examples on either side, but the question is not about isolated examples, it is about the situation as a whole.
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I honestly don’t know what you’re on about.
There was a specific situation where copycat rioting was happening in several places around the country. This was dealt with in a very specific way by cracking down hard and quickly on the rioters in order to send a message to other potential rioters that they would be dealt with harshly. It was done as a deterrent and it worked. Just because someone lobbing a brick in this situation got several months incarceration rather than a community order doesn’t suggest two tier policing. It was specifically to stop the violence in its tracks. Starmer played a blinder on this.
Are you suggesting they should treated each rioter as if it was a one off event? If you are, it would have got a whole lot worse and people would have died.
 
west didsblue said:
I honestly don’t know what you’re on about.
There was a specific situation where copycat rioting was happening in several places around the country. This was dealt with in a very specific way by cracking down hard and quickly on the rioters in order to send a message to other potential rioters that they would be dealt with harshly. It was done as a deterrent and it worked. Just because someone lobbing a brick in this situation got several months incarceration rather than a community order doesn’t suggest two tier policing. It was specifically to stop the violence in its tracks. Starmer played a blinder on this.
Are you suggesting they should treated each rioter as if it was a one off event? If you are, it would have got a whole lot worse and people would have died.
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You're entitled to your opinion. It's not one I share. Of course I support the police cracking down on rioters. I am merely suggesting that not everyone was a rioter and that the police applied different standards in certain situation which as hard to justify.

If you have a spare moment, take a look at this:



18 months in prison for this.
 
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Chippy_boy said:
A proportion of whom should not have been arrested. One man was arrested for shouting at a police dog.
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If they shouldn't have been arrested they won't be charged and won't be convicted will they ( over half have already been convicted ) they guy you reference was also shouting racist slurs? You ok with that?

www.bbc.co.uk

UK riots: Man jailed for shouting at police dog and racist slurs

Several men who participated in a riot in Rotherham outside a hotel were also given lengthy prison sentences.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
 
Chippy_boy said:
OK, watched it. John McTernan was talking nonsense. Thousands and thousands of people went outside to protest during these riots. A small number - perhaps a hundred or even a couple of hundred, I would guess - out of the thousands, were obviously criminals and did engage in riot. But thousands did not riot, they stood and watched and perhaps chanted or shouted.

To suggest they are all far-right racists is just ridiculous. Apart from anything else, the majority of people in many of those towns are Labour supporters. McTernan is just yet another example of someone who is not prepared to acknowledge that people are concerned about mass immigration. How on earth does he think Reform got 4,1m votes? Who were these voters, does he think?
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You might well believe McTernan is talking nonsense, but believe me he's merely articulating mainstream Labour thinking and this has been Labour's view for decades, once you realise that, then the debate about two tier policing is a moot point. For Daubney this was political protest that got out of hand, but for McTernan this was racist perpetrators versus ethnic minority victims, there's no immunity for those who stand and watch, they're accessories to a crime, a racist riot and they're all culpable.

Your politics and mine are not aligned, but on this issue I profoundly disagree with Labour, it is not racist to be a nativist, it is not racist to believe in a mainstream British culture. Racism is a belief in racial superiority and inferiority, it's only in the last couple of decades that racism has ballooned to encompass nativism and immigration.
 
bluethrunthru said:
If they shouldn't have been arrested they won't be charged and won't be convicted will they ( over half have already been convicted ) they guy you reference was also shouting racist slurs? You ok with that?

www.bbc.co.uk

UK riots: Man jailed for shouting at police dog and racist slurs

Several men who participated in a riot in Rotherham outside a hotel were also given lengthy prison sentences.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
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Of course, i don't condone shouting racist slurs. But 18 months in prison for it, seems excessive to me. I was witness to a violent crime some years back where after road rage, one bloke had the other on the floor and set about him with a metal bar. I was called as a witness and had to go to court around Christmas time. The bloke was convicted of "common assault" and given a community service order. But shouting at a police dog and even shouting racist commenst (we don't know what was said), 18 months in prison. Assault with a metal bar, no prison time. Just saying things; prison time. Doesn't seem right to me.

Many have been charged when they should not have been and even more concerning, told they will not get bail, and therefore they should plead guilty in order to spend less time in prison.
 
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The perfect fumble said:
You might well believe McTernan is talking nonsense, but believe me he's merely articulating mainstream Labour thinking and this has been Labour's view for decades, once you realise that, then the debate about two tier policing is a moot point. For Daubney this was political protest that got out of hand, but for McTernan this was racist perpetrators versus ethnic minority victims, there's no immunity for those who stand and watch, they're accessories to a crime, a racist riot and they're all culpable.

Your politics and mine are not aligned, but on this issue I profoundly disagree with Labour, it is not racist to be a nativist, it is not racist to believe in a mainstream British culture. Racism is a belief in racial superiority and inferiority, it's only in the last couple of decades that racism has ballooned to encompass nativism and immigration.
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Very interesting mate, and I can see where you're coming from. I did say myself in other posts that I really don't think Starmer is at all up for controlling or reducing net migration because he doesn't see it as an issue.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Very interesting mate, and I can see where you're coming from. I did say myself in other posts that I really don't think Starmer is at all up for controlling or reducing net migration because he doesn't see it as an issue.
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He does see it as an issue, but only in terms of fuel for right wing populists.

This was Blair in July this year, you only need to skim it, it's the usual vacuous yes but no New Labour bollocks...

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...air-keir-starmer-labour-immigration-far-right

Tony Blair urges Starmer to keep grip on immigration to tackle rise of far right​

Exclusive: former PM says immigration benefits UK but controls are needed to ‘close off avenues’ for populists

4966.jpg


..............................

In short, immigration is great, but the great unwashed racist white working class don't like it, so you'd better lie to them with conviction and appear to do something or other, or the ignorant fuckers will vote for Farage.
 
Some immigration is an economic necessity, which is why the Tory government allowed millions in with visas. The boat people were a very convenient distraction, as it encouraged people to focus on that more than the multiple times larger amount of legal, approved immigration.

What is needed is for politicians of all parties to be honest. They need to explain publicly why we need legal immigration and set out the consequences of not having it. One consequence would be a burning need to train more of our own people at significant cost, but I suspect that's only the start of it.

The problem is that politicians are mealy-mouthed. They know explanations would be complex and would fly over most people's heads. So instead they insult our intelligence with silly three-word slogans and imply that they're trying to stop something they have no intention of stopping.

The asylum issue is separate and has no easy solution short of becoming a pariah state. The only (partial) solution is via international cooperation, largely with the EU. That was a dirty word under the Tories and there are still many people who see any agreement with the EU as a 'sell out'. Until this juvenile attitude is fucked off we shall make no progress.
 
The perfect fumble said:
He does see it as an issue, but only in terms of fuel for right wing populists.

This was Blair in July this year, you only need to skim it, it's the usual vacuous yes but no New Labour bollocks...

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...air-keir-starmer-labour-immigration-far-right

Tony Blair urges Starmer to keep grip on immigration to tackle rise of far right​

Exclusive: former PM says immigration benefits UK but controls are needed to ‘close off avenues’ for populists

4966.jpg


..............................

In short, immigration is great, but the great unwashed racist white working class don't like it, so you'd better lie to them with conviction and appear to do something or other, or the ignorant fuckers will vote for Farage.
Click to expand...


There is nothing racist about controlling immigration, but attacking white people seems perfectly fine by calling them racist if they even suggest it.

You're not that stupid are you?
 
Chippy_boy said:
Of course, i don't condone shouting racist slurs. But 18 months in prison for it, seems excessive to me. I was witness to a violent crime some years back where after road rage, one bloke had the other on the floor and set about him with a metal bar. I was called as a witness and had to go to court around Christmas time. The bloke was convicted of "common assault" and given a community service order. But shouting at a police dog and even shouting racist commenst (we don't know what was said), 18 months in prison. Assault with a metal bar, no prison time. Just saying things; prison time. Doesn't seem right to me.

Many have been charged when they should not have been and even more concerning, told they will not get bail, and therefore they should plead guilty in order to spend less time in prison.
Click to expand...
This is nothing new. The level of sentencing is no different to what was dished out in the wake of the 2011 riots. I didn't see anyone moaning about 2 tier policing then. In fact, the whole country were pretty much agreed that the rioters got what they deserved. Some Portuguese bloke get a 16 month prison sentence for stealing an ice cream and taking one lick of it, and was also threatened with deportation.

Fuck around and get found out.
 
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mexico1970 said:
There is nothing racist about controlling immigration, but attacking white people seems perfectly fine by calling them racist if they even suggest it.

You're not that stupid are you?
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Show us where he said it's racist to suggest controlling immigration? He even said himself in that article that we need to control immigration or can you not fucking read?
 
M18CTID said:
Show us where he said it's racist to suggest controlling immigration? He even said himself in that article that we need to control immigration or can you not fucking read?
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It's the fucking reason he has to control immigration because you have to be careful not to upset the population, can you not fucking read?

If it were left to him we wouldn't have a culture left he'd have killed it. But people like you don't seem to give two fucks about that I wonder why that is?
 
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