The Labour Government

[Chippy_boy]

Well, if you look at my posts on the subject, I think you'll find I've been careful not to say what I actually think of the decision to stop wfa. All I've sought to do is give a bit of perspective -

(a) that it will not be ruinous for most pensioners - average pensioner income is two-thirds the average wage and pensioners don't usually have big housing costs, travel to work costs or families to feed;
(b) that pensioner poverty should be dealt with (so not dealing with the just-above-pension-credit level cohort is a mistake);
(c) that compared to last winter, energy costs are down, some food prices are actually down, and pensions have gone up in the last two years by nearly ten times the basic wfa;
(d) that the Tories seem to be simultaneously disgusted with Labour's decision but disgustingly gleeful about it, and
(e) if 2 million pensioners survived Trussonomics and 11% inflation, decimated bus services and other Tory cuts, most will survive this. (Insensitive, but true.)

Oh, and the increase in the age at which the rest of you start to get your pension is necessary because it all costs money and I'm sure the 4% Tory NI cut will compensate you for that. (Now have I got the Tory "divide and rule" philosophy about right?)

I think I'll have a night off now.

I appreciate your measured post, seriously. You are one of the very few posters on here who has the decency to admit when you are wrong about something, I respect you for that.

If I may, I'd like to add my perspective to your post above.

(a) Agreed, I have absolutely no issue with removing WFA from more wealthy pensioners. Personally, I think it's a bit petty doing so, and not worth the hassle. I don't think giving anyone £300 back after they'd paid taxes and NI for 40 years is a dreadful thing, but if the government wants to remove it, no big deal.

(b) Also agreed. I am not sure it is being dealt with though, which is why I am so concerned about the removal of WFA.

(c) Not agreed. Energy costs are down this winter by around £100 per household. However last year every household got a £300 subsidy from the government, so in fact every household is £200 worse of this winter, compared to last. That's BEFORE Labour take away the £300 for pensioners, which then makes them £500 worse off. And I wonder about your maths. if the WFA is £300, have pensions gone up £3,000 per person in 2 years? Genuinely I don't know. Staggering if true. I am not aware of any falling food prices. Inflation has fallen, which just means prices are going up more slowly. But I have not seen any negative inflation. Certainly not overall, although maybe the odd thing here or there is cheaper. Food prices as a whole are still rising.

(d) I don't think anyone is gleeful about it. I am pleased Labour are making fuck ups all over the place (IMO) but I am genuinely disgusted at the removal of WFA for people on £12k per year or less. It's indefensible. What's even more annoying is their constant lying about it. Lying that they had no choice. What utter rubbish. OF COURSE they had a choice. Please stop lying. We are not fools.

(e) I don't lay all those issues at the Tories door. Inflation went up globally to similar levels. The INDEPENDENT bank of england was responsible for keeping it low and failed. I am not in favour of an independent BoE myself, and notably, Labour established its independence. Anyway, no-one dies from missing a bus service, but thousands of elderly every year die of the cold. In the latest figures i have seen there were 13,400 excess deaths in winter in 20/21, and that was the 2nd lowest number in 70 years! Of course, not all "died of cold" but they did die from complications relating to it. The 13,400 number is the excess deaths compared to summer months, so it is statistically inescapable the thousands of people die from the lower temperatures. Of course this does not include the ENORMOUS cost to the NHS of the elderly getting flu or pneumonia and then being bed-blockers in hospital for weeks or even months.

 

[kaz7]

I appreciate your measured post, seriously. You are one of the very few posters on here who has the decency to admit when you are wrong about something, I respect you for that.

If I may, I'd like to add my perspective to your post above.

(a) Agreed, I have absolutely no issue with removing WFA from more wealthy pensioners. Personally, I think it's a bit petty doing so, and not worth the hassle. I don't think giving anyone £300 back after they'd paid taxes and NI for 40 years is a dreadful thing, but if the government wants to remove it, no big deal.

(b) Also agreed. I am not sure it is being dealt with though, which is why I am so concerned about the removal of WFA.

(c) Not agreed. Energy costs are down this winter by around £100 per household. However last year every household got a £300 subsidy from the government, so in fact every household is £200 worse of this winter, compared to last. That's BEFORE Labour take away the £300 for pensioners, which then makes them £500 worse off. And I wonder about your maths. if the WFA is £300, have pensions gone up £3,000 per person in 2 years? Genuinely I don't know. Staggering if true. I am not aware of any falling food prices. Inflation has fallen, which just means prices are going up more slowly. But I have not seen any negative inflation. Certainly not overall, although maybe the odd thing here or there is cheaper. Food prices as a whole are still rising.

(d) I don't think anyone is gleeful about it. I am pleased Labour are making fuck ups all over the place (IMO) but I am genuinely disgusted at the removal of WFA for people on £12k per year or less. It's indefensible. What's even more annoying is their constant lying about it. Lying that they had no choice. What utter rubbish. OF COURSE they had a choice. Please stop lying. We are not fools.

(e) I don't lay all those issues at the Tories door. Inflation went up globally to similar levels. The INDEPENDENT bank of england was responsible for keeping it low and failed. I am not in favour of an independent BoE myself, and notably, Labour established its independence. Anyway, no-one dies from missing a bus service, but thousands of elderly every year die of the cold. In the latest figures i have seen there were 13,400 excess deaths in winter in 20/21, and that was the 2nd lowest number in 70 years! Of course, not all "died of cold" but they did die from complications relating to it. The 13,400 number is the excess deaths compared to summer months.

Of course the issues are to be laid at the tories door, for 14 yrs they cut every budget to the bone , the nhs staff are running on fumes , the austerity has decimated public services , they cut the pandemic planning to the bone and allowed millions of items of ppe go out of date hence the scrabble to get out ridiculous contracts to get some to the staff wearing bin bags as ppe . As i understand it every country has to do pandemic planning and obama warned there was a pandemic loaming large

The tories always talk about covid and ukraine and never admit to being in charge for ten years before covid , their choices are going to be felt for years , ask those with mortages

 

[KS55]

Of course the issues are to be laid at the tories door, for 14 yrs they cut every budget to the bone , the nhs staff are running on fumes , the austerity has decimated public services , they cut the pandemic planning to the bone and allowed millions of items of ppe go out of date hence the scrabble to get out ridiculous contracts to get some to the staff wearing bin bags as ppe . As i understand it every country has to do pandemic planning and obama warned there was a pandemic loaming large

The tories always talk about covid and ukraine and never admit to being in charge for ten years before covid , their choices are going to be felt for years , ask those with mortages

Lord Darzi, having done a deep dive into the state of the nhs, disagrees with you. He largely blames poor productivity, not any lack of budget.

 

[kaz7]

Lord Darzi disagrees with you.

Why , what has he said ?

 

[Norbert D]

Of course the issues are to be laid at the tories door, for 14 yrs they cut every budget to the bone , the nhs staff are running on fumes , the austerity has decimated public services , they cut the pandemic planning to the bone and allowed millions of items of ppe go out of date hence the scrabble to get out ridiculous contracts to get some to the staff wearing bin bags as ppe . As i understand it every country has to do pandemic planning and obama warned there was a pandemic loaming large

The tories always talk about covid and ukraine and never admit to being in charge for ten years before covid , their choices are going to be felt for years , ask those with mortages

And of course the mother of all shitshows Brexit that has cost us £100B a year since 2019. That’s a cool half a trillion quid. And that’s before we look at all the tradespeople who were pushed out of the uk, the car plant closures and general lack of investment. All at the Tories door.

 

[kaz7]

And of course the mother of all shitshows Brexit that has cost us £100B a year since 2019. That’s a cool half a trillion quid. And that’s before we look at all the tradespeople who were pushed out of the uk, the car plant closures and general lack of investment. All at the Tories door.

Shit i forgot about brexit ! Another pointless endevour . Nobody understood what leaving europe meant despite people like farage insisting the voters were clued up on what voting leave meant , i saw loads of plebs over the weeks following the vote asking why the fuck hadnt we left already, the week after the vote , if only it was that simple

 

[KS55]

Why , what has he said ?

He blames poor productivity rather than any lack of budget. Starmer has indicated his agreement and says ‘nhs you must reform, if you want any increase in budget.’
For example, over twenty years ago, I identified bed blocking as a key issue at a large west London trust. At the last count, it had got worse. All the trust had to do was give some of their budget to primary care. Horror on their faces! Yet they spent a fortune on hepatic pumps which had a minor effect on some patients.
Darzi too talked about the effects of bed blocking just this week.

 

[mosssideblue]

Lord Darzi, having done a deep dive into the state of the nhs, disagrees with you. He largely blames poor productivity, not any lack of budget.

He also blamed years of austerity

 

[kaz7]

Lord Darzi, having done a deep dive into the state of the nhs, disagrees with you. He largely blames poor productivity, not any lack of budget.

The staff are working their arses off , is he telling nurses and doctors that they should work harder ffs

 

[kaz7]

He also blamed years of austerity

That makes more sense , everyone can see that happened

 

[TinFoilHat]

The staff are working their arses off , is he telling nurses and doctors that they should work harder ffs

Sounds like it.

 

[KS55]

The staff are working their arses off , is he telling nurses and doctors that they should work harder ffs

No he is telling them to increase productivity which is quite different. Work smarter not harder. See my post on bed blocking. Darzi also talked about digitisation, a key to productivity. My local hospital where I am a ENT patient, keeps my treatment record in paper files. It’s C21, FFS!
Appointments are patient driven but I can’t even email them.
PS EDIT. The treatment is excellent once they respond to my voice mails.

 

[The perfect fumble]

The staff are working their arses off , is he telling nurses and doctors that they should work harder ffs

Poor productivity is rarely, if ever, the result of people not working hard enough, it's the result of them working in piss poor systems, it requires a lot of hard work to keep a shit show on the road.

Design more efficient systems and productivity rises.

 

[kaz7]

Sounds like it.

He needs to watch all the docos on the nhs that i watch then he will see how hospitals are run and how the staff bleed blood . He can also understand why there are multiple reasons why operations are cancelled for example, how A&E works, the strain the ambulance services are under , infact i recommend every fucker who moans about the nhs to watch them , they are all over every channel , the work ethics of the staff is not the fucking problem and i take offence on their behalf and having been a nhs nurse of 20 yrs

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Sounds like it.

As long as he doesn't tell 'em to work as hard as the Rt. Hon Members there's a good chance some folk might be cured.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

No he is telling them to increase productivity which is quite different. Work smarter not harder. See my post on bed blocking. Darzi also talked about digitisation, a key to productivity. My local hospital where I am a ENT patient, keeps my treatment record in paper files. It’s C21, FFS!
Appointments are patient driven but I can’t even email them.

The computer systems of the NHS has been talked about for years!

 

[philiph20]

Poor productivity is rarely, if ever, the result of people not working hard enough, it's the result of them working in piss poor systems, it requires a lot of hard work to keep a shit show on the road.

Design more efficient systems and productivity rises.

And employ more competent managers, a sizeable proportion of NHS managers aren't fit for purpose, you are spot on about 'piss poor systems', it's embarrassing to see how backward the thinking is and how short-term the thinking is, 80% of the admin staff are great but 20% are piss-takers who are stealing a living and seem to be 'untouchable', it needs a truly massive shake-up.

 

[KS55]

The computer systems of the NHS has been talked about for years!

Yup. Very patchy. I go ‘out of area’ for RA treatment, but the hospital I use has no access to my ‘in area’ file.

 

[kaz7]

No he is telling them to increase productivity which is quite different. Work smarter not harder. See my post on bed blocking. Darzi also talked about digitisation, a key to productivity. My local hospital where I am a ENT patient, keeps my treatment record in paper files. It’s C21, FFS!
Appointments are patient driven but I can’t even email them.

Bed blocking has been a thing since i started my training in '79 , it is nothing new , the tories promised to sort out social care but didnt touch it , that is the key , that and seeing your dr and physio more easier , there is not one problem to solve

I am very lucky as i have a trust that works really well, i have had to use them a lot recently and a couple of times or so through the cancer two week pathway and everything worked perfectly and within the two week target every time , it can be done so why is the national picture so bad

 

[hilts]

Well, if you look at my posts on the subject, I think you'll find I've been careful not to say what I actually think of the decision to stop wfa. All I've sought to do is give a bit of perspective -

(a) that it will not be ruinous for most pensioners - average pensioner income is two-thirds the average wage and pensioners don't usually have big housing costs, travel to work costs or families to feed;
(b) that pensioner poverty should be dealt with (so not dealing with the just-above-pension-credit level cohort is a mistake);
(c) that compared to last winter, energy costs are down, some food prices are actually down, and pensions have gone up in the last two years by nearly ten times the basic wfa;
(d) that the Tories seem to be simultaneously disgusted with Labour's decision but disgustingly gleeful about it, and
(e) if 2 million pensioners survived Trussonomics and 11% inflation, decimated bus services and other Tory cuts, most will survive this. (Insensitive, but true.)

Oh, and the increase in the age at which the rest of you start to get your pension is necessary because it all costs money and I'm sure the 4% Tory NI cut will compensate you for that. (Now have I got the Tory "divide and rule" philosophy about right?)

I think I'll have a night off now.

And why have you not given your opinion on stopping it VicTory? You're not an abstaining MP as far as I'm aware, locals won't turn up with pitchforks. I can only think of

1) you think it's a bad decision but don't want to say as you're a Labour supporter - that's very sad.

2) you agree with the decision but don't want to be reminded of it in the future - also sad.

Its a football forum the earth won't open up if you give an opinion. I think you may overestimate the importance of this sub forum or like a politician don't like being seen to be wrong. Which is quite sad also.