Middle East Conflict

[Don Karleone]

Israel is bombing people in tents, again. The videos on Twitter are horrific.

 

[cucumberman]

In 1967, when Nasser was dick-swinging around the Middle East, there was a UN force stationed in Sinai that had been there since Suez to protect international waterways.

Nasser ordered them out and the UN Secretary General meekly complied. With them out of the way Nasser closed the Straits of Tiran to international shipping. Israel said that would be a causus belli and they acted on that.

That led to the Six Day War, which left the West Bank & Gaza in Israeli hands. Had the UN force stayed put, it's doubtful the war would've happened and we wouldn't be where we are today.

The UN force in Lebanon was supposed to ensure that Hezbollah met the terms of the 2006 ceasefire and remained north of the Litani river. They conspicuously failed to do that, which is why we're where we are now in Lebanon.

So you could maybe understand why Israel has no faith in the UN.

On a different tangent,

The first attack post 7 October by Hezbollah was on 8th October. The strike was on Shebaa Farm that comprised of old shells and a threat statement that if Israel continues to wage war on Gaza instead of a ceasefire, them Hezbollah will continue to strike Shebaa Farm. No one was harmed.

Shebaa farm is not Israel territory. It is an Israel OCCUPIED territory which Israel rather provide ownership to Syria. Syria however identifies the Shebaa area as Lebanon territory.

Hence, did Hezbollah violate Israel-Lebanon Peace Agreement? Not really, Because it was not cross-border attack.

In retaliation however, Israel identifies it as an attack ON Israel territory, even when Israel itself identifies it as Syrian ‘territory’. Thus, using the arc that Hezbollah did attack on Israel territory, Israel attacked Southern Lebanon. Yes, Lebanon’s real territory. The attack of shells and drone was on civilian area, and 2 Lebanese children were wounded from glass and debris. This cross-border attack identifies Israel as the first contravenor of Israel-Lebanon Peace Agreement.

Days thereafter in October, Hezbollah still attacked on Israel OCCUPIED territory as threats to demand for Gaza ceasefire.

It was not until Israel did attack Lebanese people near the Metula area border (Lebanon-Israel border) that Hezbollah retaliated after in Israel territory.

Hence, a few days after the Metula event, Hezbollah fired an antitank missile near the border BUT in Israel territory. The antitank attack was the first strike from Hezbollah cross territory to actual Israel territory. The antitank missile killed 1 Israel soldier.

Then the tit for tat attacks escalate to the current state.

Israel has been attacking Southern Lebanon and deep Lebanon with air attacks and missiles, killing numerous civilians, which Israel identifies as ‘collateral’, ‘proportionality’ and ‘human shields’. Israel considers that in times of war, civilians will die. Currently, more than 2000 Lebanese have been killed, including 127 children and 261 women.

In contrast, The latest Hezbollah air attack, which was 8 hours ago, used drones covertly flying over any Israel civilian compounds to sneak all the way close to the Israel military base, and conducted precision attack. The attack (based on latest update) killed 7 and wounded 67 (in another figure on wounded, up to 170 wounded). All soldiers.

In a nutshell, Israel emphasises that civilian collateral deaths is unavoidable even with precision munition and intelligence. Hezbollah’s of what they first declared as their ‘uncoventional retaliation’ several days ago, has targeted soldiers.

 

[cucumberman]

This entire video, from BBC even, covers the animosity and atrocity of what this far-right Israel government is becoming.



The current Israel government of far-right reps of Likud and supremacist Messianites are holier-than-thou, god-given right, most moral people.

And based on Lancet, the Gaza Conflict (which could have been prevented) is attributable to the current 180,000 deaths of Gazans. Or 7.9% of the whole Gazan population.

In recent conflicts, such indirect deaths range from three to 15 times the number of direct deaths. Applying a conservative estimate of four indirect deaths per one direct death9 to the 37 396 deaths reported, it is not implausible to estimate that up to 186 000 or even more deaths could be attributable to the current conflict in Gaza. Using the 2022 Gaza Strip population estimate of 2 375 259, this would translate to 7·9% of the total population in the Gaza Strip.

 

[DutchSMOKE11]

There's some utter crap posted on here but that takes the absolute biscuit.

Rather than counter the argument is that the best reply u can u can say?

So with that, the burden is on me to provide some resource to back up my claim.

here goes:
https://mepei.com/greater-israel-an-ongoing-expansion-plan-for-the-middle-east-and-north-africa/

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/i...-netanyahus-ideology-top-un-official-18218835

https://www.proquest.com/docview/1678895630?sourcetype=Trade Journals

Books have been published on this topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinon_Plan

 

[The blue phantom]

Rather than counter the argument is that the best reply u can u can say?

So with that, the burden is on me to provide some resource to back up my claim.

here goes:
https://mepei.com/greater-israel-an-ongoing-expansion-plan-for-the-middle-east-and-north-africa/

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/i...-netanyahus-ideology-top-un-official-18218835

https://www.proquest.com/docview/1678895630?sourcetype=Trade Journals

Books have been published on this topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinon_Plan

Some posters cannot come to terms with the Israeli atrocities and what their end game is. You've got Jewish posters who have lived in Israel stating a Genocide is in progress and again the same folk are refusing to accept what the majority of the world is witnessing.

 

[Ducado]

Here's the problem dropping bombs on each other is just making each respective population more war like someone desperately needs to break the cycle, Israel is not going to defeat Hezbollah and Hezbollah are not going destroy Israel what both sides can do is damage each others countries it's just madness and innocent people are suffering

I ask my more hawkish Israeli friends what is the end game and they insist that its the destruction of the Iranian backed proxies in the region, I point out to them that it's never really been done and the last few times countries have tried it it's ended up in ignominious defeat

In the meantime the Russians and the Chinese are loving this, it's eroding support for the Americans across the world, it's eating up military supplies and taking American focus off other regions

 

[Ducado]

U know this fighting won't stop till a Greater Israel is formed. Google what that means and which country. It includes Lebanon, Iraq, part of Saudi.

What nonsense Israel can barely afford to keep the occupied territories it has, you make the mistake of reading the most extreme opinions and then believe they are actual facts

That there are lots of extremists in the Israeli government at the moment is in no doubt, but what they believe and what is achievable are quite different things, for a start where are all the soldiers going to come from? There are Arabs that want to wipe the state of Israel off the map as well, we need to stop listening to the extremes on both sides and talk to the moderate voices

 

[Vic]

What nonsense Israel can barely afford to keep the occupied territories it has, you make the mistake of reading the most extreme opinions and then believe they are actual facts

That there are lots of extremists in the Israeli government at the moment is in no doubt, but what they believe and what is achievable are quite different things, for a start where are all the soldiers going to come from? There are Arabs that want to wipe the state of Israel off the map as well, we need to stop listening to the extremes on both sides and talk to the moderate voices

So it's not achievable?

So they would if they could?

 

[Alvin-blue-qhd]

In the meantime the Russians and the Chinese are loving this, it's eroding support for the Americans across the world, it's eating up military supplies and taking American focus off other regions

Chinese are loving this?
LOL，the Russia-Ukraine war does play a role of "eating up military supplies and taking american focus off".
But gaza? I don't think so.

 

[Ducado]

So it's not achievable?

So they would if they could?

I am sure there are some nutcases who would want it but not your average person in the street just like the opposite opinion, extremist opinion is not a good metric to be even talking about in this war

 

[Vic]

I am sure there are some nutcases who would want it but not your average person in the street just like the opposite opinion, extremist opinion is not a good metric to be even talking about in this war

But they've elected an extremist government.

In the context, it's odd that the religious extremists want to restore the kingdom of David and Solomon, even though the "prophetic" books are fairly clear that most of their kings were Bad Kings (and G-d warned them against having kings in the first place).

 

[DutchSMOKE11]

Some posters cannot come to terms with the Israeli atrocities and what their end game is. You've got Jewish posters who have lived in Israel stating a Genocide is in progress and again the same folk are refusing to accept what the majority of the world is witnessing.

I agree, but rather than focus on the opinion of the public, we should look more closely at the actions of the right-wing government currently in power and their intentions. They clearly have an agenda for creating a "Greater Israel," and this isn't just speculation. There are actual videos online of Israeli government officials discussing this plan—no AI manipulation, just real audio and footage. It’s something that cannot ignored.

 

[TonyM]

I suppose you can't be it if you can't see it

I watched this recently. I thought it was very well done. You get the perspective of the SS men and women. You hear how they were groomed, felt special, determined, patriotic, how they felt that they were under attack from the other side (Communists and Jews and eventually the whole world), how their actions were justified to protect their nation, how they didn't even see people as people, how they were willing to do horrible things in the moment for peace in the long term. It's terrifying really how inhumanity is so rational in certain boots.




Obviously there are vast differences between Israel today and Germany back then. But there are also many similarities.

There were some decent Germans as there are decent Isrealis. It must have been awful for both to see what happened in their name.

 

[inbetween]

What nonsense Israel can barely afford to keep the occupied territories it has, you make the mistake of reading the most extreme opinions and then believe they are actual facts

That there are lots of extremists in the Israeli government at the moment is in no doubt, but what they believe and what is achievable are quite different things, for a start where are all the soldiers going to come from? There are Arabs that want to wipe the state of Israel off the map as well, we need to stop listening to the extremes on both sides and talk to the moderate voices

The real danger that has come to exist is that the Israeli government is going farther than ever before. They're becoming ever more extreme in the sense that this isn't even about terrorism anymore. It's about messaging to the Arab world that Israel cannot be touched and they'll do whatever they want.

At this stage even arms restrictions aren't going to cut it. That would achieve a ceasefire but in the end this whole problem fundamentally requires regime change in Israel. That regime is not plotting peace or a ceasefire, they're plotting to end all territorial claims over Israel by annihilating anybody who dares to act to make such a claim.

They're acting to make the repercussions of all actions against Israel so terrible that nobody will dare to do it and from there they'll do whatever they want. They'll then take all territory from the Palestinians and the Palestinians will be absorbed into the Arab world and essentially erased.

 

[Ducado]

The real danger that has come to exist is that the Israeli government is going farther than ever before. They're becoming ever more extreme in the sense that this isn't even about terrorism anymore. It's about messaging to the Arab world that Israel cannot be touched and they'll do whatever they want.

At this stage even arms restrictions aren't going to cut it. That would achieve a ceasefire but in the end this whole problem fundamentally requires regime change in Israel. That regime is not plotting peace or a ceasefire, they're plotting to end all territorial claims over Israel by annihilating anybody who dares to act to make such a claim.

They're acting to make the repercussions of all actions against Israel so terrible that nobody will dare to do it and from there they'll do whatever they want. They'll then take all territory from the Palestinians and the Palestinians will be absorbed into the Arab world and essentially erased.

It's hard to disagree but Israel is a democracy and governments can be voted out, many think this is a win win for Israel it is not, it needs a functioning economy and at the moment it's starting to malfunction they can't fund a perpetual large scale war, they also don't have the manpower either, due to population sizes losses have a multiplier effect

They are using an old fashioned doctrine that I doubt will work anymore especially as it's adversaries have got more powerful the only way to end this is for a two state solution sooner or later the Israeli body politic will realise that in order to have a country that is accepted into the family of nations a peaceful solution will have to be found

 

[The Fat el Hombre]

Israel is bombing people in tents, again. The videos on Twitter are horrific.

Hezbollah attacked a military target in Israel, israel responded by doing what it does best - cowardly dropping American bombs from a safe distance on palestinian civilians, the make shift hospital in this instance:



"Israel said" is not journalism.

And yes the videos going round are horrific - you can see people still alive lay down in the tents with iv attached to their arms, struggling as they burning alive

So that's a school they bombed on Friday, killing 5 children, and a hospital last night, murdering many more people, burning them alive

Yet more horrors committed by israel. No one can pretend that they didn't know about this genocide. It's live streamed every day. Shame

 

[inbetween]

It's hard to disagree but Israel is a democracy and governments can be voted out, many think this is a win win for Israel it is not, it needs a functioning economy and at the moment it's starting to malfunction they can't fund a perpetual large scale war, they also don't have the manpower either, due to population sizes losses have a multiplier effect

They are using an old fashioned doctrine that I doubt will work anymore especially as it's adversaries have got more powerful the only way to end this is for a two state solution sooner or later the Israeli body politic will realise that in order to have a country that is accepted into the family of nations a peaceful solution will have to be found

Unfortunately though the entirety of the power over this (as in 99%) lies on the Israeli side. If Israel does not want a Palestinian state then there won't be a Palestininan state and that's the current policy of the Israeli government and it will never change.

We can talk up two state solutions but that has been suggested within the west many times and here we are a million miles from such a thing. The reason why we're a million miles away is because of one key opposer, Israel. The existence of other opposers such as Hezbollah or Hamas are just consequences of that fact.

Israel is beginning to overarch beyond simple defence and it has already trespassed into acting upon ideology. We can dress this up by saying that well at least Israel is a democracy but Netanyahu doesn't even command a majority of the Israeli Parliament. He had to appease some very hardline right elements to even instigate a government.

Israel can only salvage this from within but clearly that isn't going to happen. Nazi Germany never held a vote to ask it's people whether it wanted WW2 or the subsequent atrocities committed. Germans only opposed Nazi Germany when it became clear that Germany was facing annihilation. Israel is far from that obviously but the danger is clear.

 

[DutchSMOKE11]

seen the footage of the Palestinian being burnt in fire?



CAUTION

 

[Don Karleone]

Labour-sanctioned genocide.

 

[SamBlue]

David Lammy is turning into a parody of himself. I would like to know what part and percentage of his constituents share his ministerial views.