Middle East Conflict

cucumberman said:
The 1947 UN Partition Plan of the 56%-42% partition as per accepted by Israel invoked the displacement of approximately 200,000 Palestinians.

However, in contrast to the Partition Plan, within 6 months after the enactment, IDF displaced approximately 400,000 which was 200% more than based on the Partition Plan; and by 1949 the total displacement of 750,000 Palestinians, which was 350% more than the 1947 Partition Plan

By 1967 and thereafter, the displacement was 1.2 million, which was 600% more than the 1947 Partition Plan.

So, based on the above, did Israel abide to the 1947 Partition Plan, or they disavowed days after the Partition Plan enacted 1948?

Here’s an analogy

Imagine that you are Palestine and I am Israel. You have a family of 10 people, while I am a family of 6. You live in the house for many years and have 10 bedrooms.

Because your house is I regard as my ancestral house, I requested for live-in and ownership of the house. The authorities approved that I take ownership of 6 bedrooms out of the 10 bedrooms in the house.

So, my family of 6 each live in a bedroom. Ergo room per my person. In contrast, Your family of 10 are given 4 bedrooms. Ergo you have 2 rooms each with 2 persons, and 2 remaining rooms each with 3 persons.

You complain that its not fair because they get fewer rooms for more persons. I interjected that the house is my ancestral home so I go vocal. I get support from my authorities. I invited my 2 other relatives to live-in so I get to own two more of your rooms. Now I get a family of 8 with 8 bedrooms, while you have a family of 10 with 2 bedrooms.

I also take control of your utilities, your water, your access in and out of your 2 remaining rooms.

How does the side of your family take it?
Click to expand...
Look, my point is that the Palestinians do not seem to have won anything with war but utter misery and loss of land. After each 'war', as per usual, the victors rewrite the borders to their liking. That's how it is. That's how it has always been. If Palestine would have won then Israel would not exist BUT Palestine did not win, Israel did. Having lost a war you cannot just shake hands and say lets go back to exactly how it was pre war. You are at the mercy of the victors.
I go back to my original post.
The Palestinians need to forget war and concentrate on gaining the moral high ground and popular support by dropping the annihilation of Israel nonsense and promoting peaceful protest. Both sides need to be realistic, both sides need to compromise. And, perhaps even more important, both sides need to prove they are trustworthy partners.
 
Palerider said:
No, you answer my question first.

And now a simple Yes or No for you.

Would the Palestinians be better off today if they had stuck to the 1947 UN Partition Plan?
Click to expand...
The answer is probably yes. Just like native Americans would have avoided a genocide if only they'd said "of course you can have our land and kill off all our food sources".

Is this how you think?

"All the trouble is due to misunderstanding – the Arabs have not understood us, and that is the only reason why they resist us; if we can only make it clear to them how moderate our intentions really are, they will immediately extend to us their hand in friendship."
 
bluethrunthru said:
They are trying this one again



which makes this kinda awkward

Click to expand...


Bbc have had a look round and found nothing too



It's just what israel does - lies and lies and lies, and murders and tortures people

Shameful that they are gonna try the same pathetic lies which have been disproven before, and that everyone is gonna sit back and do fuck all whilst they continue to bomb and murder everyone
 
The Fat el Hombre said:
Bbc have had a look round and found nothing too



It's just what israel does - lies and lies and lies, and murders and tortures people

Shameful that they are gonna try the same pathetic lies which have been disproven before, and that everyone is gonna sit back and do fuck all whilst they continue to bomb and murder everyone
Click to expand...

Yep. The infamous "command and control" centre under Al Shifa ....



Meanwhile...... every accusation and all that.

www.nytimes.com

A Look Inside Israel’s ‘Fortress of Zion’ Military Command Beneath Tel Aviv (Published 2021)

The country’s military and intelligence commanded the recent assault on Hamas in Gaza from an underground bunker made for high-tech air wars.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
 
Palerider said:
Look, my point is that the Palestinians do not seem to have won anything with war but utter misery and loss of land. After each 'war', as per usual, the victors rewrite the borders to their liking. That's how it is. That's how it has always been. If Palestine would have won then Israel would not exist BUT Palestine did not win, Israel did. Having lost a war you cannot just shake hands and say lets go back to exactly how it was pre war. You are at the mercy of the victors.
I go back to my original post.
The Palestinians need to forget war and concentrate on gaining the moral high ground and popular support by dropping the annihilation of Israel nonsense and promoting peaceful protest. Both sides need to be realistic, both sides need to compromise. And, perhaps even more important, both sides need to prove they are trustworthy partners.
Click to expand...
Sounds like Might is Right.
 
Vic said:
The answer is probably yes. Just like native Americans would have avoided a genocide if only they'd said "of course you can have our land and kill off all our food sources".

Is this how you think?

"All the trouble is due to misunderstanding – the Arabs have not understood us, and that is the only reason why they resist us; if we can only make it clear to them how moderate our intentions really are, they will immediately extend to us their hand in friendship."
Click to expand...
Might is Right.
They lost against American armed Israel.
Get over it.
 
"A long-time senior Israeli government official and Netanyahu/Liduk adviser, Jordana Cutler, is now the chief of Facebook's US censorship unit on Israel and Palestine."

Expect (even more) censorship of people speaking up against the ongoing genocide. Loads of anti genocide accounts have been throttled on Twitter since Mr free speech himself elon musk took his little tour to Israel (Lowkeys account being the one that instantly springs to mind - he was shadow banned so you wouldn't see his tweets on your timeline and even if you searched his account on Twitter he didn't show up). Looks like they've got Facebook and Instagram wrapped up

 
The Fat el Hombre said:
"A long-time senior Israeli government official and Netanyahu/Liduk adviser, Jordana Cutler, is now the chief of Facebook's US censorship unit on Israel and Palestine."

Expect (even more) censorship of people speaking up against the ongoing genocide. Loads of anti genocide accounts have been throttled on Twitter since Mr free speech himself elon musk took his little tour to Israel (Lowkeys account being the one that instantly springs to mind - he was shadow banned so you wouldn't see his tweets on your timeline and even if you searched his account on Twitter he didn't show up). Looks like they've got Facebook and Instagram wrapped up

Click to expand...


saw this today. I am not a fan of conspiracy theories nor the idea that a Zionist cabal rules the world but I really do think that there is time (now) for a review of the world situation. Example - do they need a senior Arab/Muslim in post to counter this? Simply to ask the questions why and what if?

Most of the worlds ills can be fixed by that sort of thing - a counter balance in place to ask why and not to stop asking why until there is an answer or it becomes clear its bollocks. A good example would be in UK or USA politics - eg when Trump or Starmer or Johnson or anyone makes a point and just not to leave the point until they get an answer OR the person being questioned runs away. Remember how Truss folded like a sub-standard lettuce when local BBC reporters put her to that sword? Probably never to be repeated for the foreseeable sadly but for me nail every **** and their statement to the desk and never give up until you get an answer - you will get a different class of person coming into Politics
 

​

There is still a way out of this endless cycle of violence, but it demands a paradigm shift from those who have the power in the region and the world to impact the reality on the ground. The hegemonic discourse that focuses on ‘peace’ between the coloniser and the colonised is irrelevant to that reality. The appropriate term to use is decolonisation, which will include the substitution of the apartheid regime that exists all over historical Palestine.
The cessation of the efforts to dispossess the Palestinians, the rectification of past evils in the form of the repatriation of Palestinian refugees, and the institutionalisation of a political regime based on equality in all aspects of life between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea is the only hope for genuine peace in the future. The Palestinians do not have the power to obtain that future without the help of that part of the world that allowed a settler movement to dispossess them in 1948 and ever since. Britain and the USA are particularly complicit in the cartography of disaster that has enveloped historical Palestine since the arrival of the Zionist movement. They have a historical responsibility to stop the genocide in Gaza and the destruction of the West Bank, and to then enable the Palestinian liberation movement to build a new Palestine akin to that of the past, where Muslims, Christians, and Jews coexisted as one nation.
If this does not happen, Israel will not survive for long. Like the Crusaders many years before them, Israeli Jews will find out that you cannot impose a European state on the native people of an Arab Palestine against their will. To prevent the violent destruction of this colonialist project — one that also brought blessings to the country in many areas of life — and produce an authentic Hebrew culture, a non-violent decolonisation leading to one democratic state is the only viable option.




The paradigm shift required is reflected in a lot of the "why are they like this" questioning in here today. Ask those same questions to the occupier rather than the occupied and the whole rationale collapses on it's internal contradictions.

tribunemag.co.uk

Ilan Pappe: Palestine’s Blood Never Dried

From 1948 to today, ethnic cleansing hasn’t been about rare instances of Israeli extremity — it is a defining feature of the daily colonial subjugation of the Palestinian people.
tribunemag.co.uk tribunemag.co.uk
 
Palerider said:
Look, my point is that the Palestinians do not seem to have won anything with war but utter misery and loss of land. After each 'war', as per usual, the victors rewrite the borders to their liking. That's how it is. That's how it has always been. If Palestine would have won then Israel would not exist BUT Palestine did not win, Israel did. Having lost a war you cannot just shake hands and say lets go back to exactly how it was pre war. You are at the mercy of the victors.
I go back to my original post.
The Palestinians need to forget war and concentrate on gaining the moral high ground and popular support by dropping the annihilation of Israel nonsense and promoting peaceful protest. Both sides need to be realistic, both sides need to compromise. And, perhaps even more important, both sides need to prove they are trustworthy partners.
Click to expand...

It was never a two-sided war to begin with before 1947. There are skirmishes between both migrant Jews and Arabs, but the Irgun, Lehi and Palmach got the extreme upper hand because they had far more weapons cache, and that was because of their objective in defeating the entire British army and police who were defending the British Mandate and the Arabs. Refer to my previous post:

Post in thread 'Middle East Conflict'
https://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/threads/middle-east-conflict.334241/post-17595385

There is a detailed account of how the pre-IDF in the 1930s and pre WWII, against the knowledge of the British Palestine no less, imported to Palestine thousands of weapons munitions and armaments from Germany. They imported hidden from the ships several times, and only on 1 occasion did the British officers expose a hidden ship container that were supposedly food and spices, which then led to the officers rushing to the Mandate HQ to inform their boss of what they found, but instead killed by the Irgun et al militia/terrorist.

And after WWII they imported illegal arms via Czechoslovakia, more arms and munitions provided by the Sonnebon group; the Jewish-American group who were for the mass displacement of Palestine.

The only Palestinians who had weapons and munitions were citizens with WWI era weapons and the 4000 Palestinian police and soldiers who were legally employed by the British Police and Army for British Mandate of Palestine.
 
cucumberman said:
It was never a two-sided war to begin with before 1947. There are skirmishes between both migrant Jews and Arabs, but the Irgun, Lehi and Palmach got the extreme upper hand because they had far more weapons cache, and that was because of their objective in defeating the entire British army and police who were defending the British Mandate and the Arabs. Refer to my previous post:

Post in thread 'Middle East Conflict'
https://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/threads/middle-east-conflict.334241/post-17595385

There is a detailed account of how the pre-IDF in the 1930s and pre WWII, against the knowledge of the British Palestine no less, imported to Palestine thousands of weapons munitions and armaments from Germany. They imported hidden from the ships several times, and only on 1 occasion did the British officers expose a hidden ship container that were supposedly food and spices, which then led to the officers rushing to the Mandate HQ to inform their boss of what they found, but instead killed by the Irgun et al militia/terrorist.

And after WWII they imported illegal arms via Czechoslovakia, more arms and munitions provided by the Sonnebon group; the Jewish-American group who were for the mass displacement of Palestine.

The only Palestinians who had weapons and munitions were citizens with WWI era weapons and the 4000 Palestinian police and soldiers who were legally employed by the British Police and Army for British Mandate of Palestine.
Click to expand...
I honestly do not know what to reply. Many seem to hate each other, it's a war, someone will end up winning and someone will end up losing. A lot of people who could not care less whether the land is called Israel or Palestine will/have died. A lot of people who do care whether the land is called Israel/Palestine will/have died. I'm suggesting we try something a bit different to death.
 
Palerider said:
... A lot of people who could not care less whether the land is called Israel or Palestine will/have died. A lot of people who do care whether the land is called Israel/Palestine will/have died. I'm suggesting we try something a bit different to death.
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Agreed, but the 1 million dollar question is: who is 'we' ???

Extremists on both sides don't fancy painful compromises, which would be made by moderates though to reach a higher long term goal.

To disarm the extremists the moderates would have to radicalize, but that doesn't make much sense. We are lost.
 
Palerider said:
I honestly do not know what to reply. Many seem to hate each other, it's a war, someone will end up winning and someone will end up losing. A lot of people who could not care less whether the land is called Israel or Palestine will/have died. A lot of people who do care whether the land is called Israel/Palestine will/have died. I'm suggesting we try something a bit different to death.
Click to expand...

Is it possible that they've already tried peaceful resistance and it didn't work out?

en.m.wikipedia.org

2018–2019 Gaza border protests - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
St.Pauli support said:
Agreed, but the 1 million dollar question is: who is 'we' ???

Extremists on both sides don't fancy painful compromises, which would be made by moderates though to reach a higher long term goal.

To disarm the extremists the moderates would have to radicalize, but that doesn't make much sense. We are lost.
Click to expand...
And this is ultimately the problem of the arguments against Israel. We can recognise the faults of Israel but we can't not recognise the reality that Israel is an internationally recognised country and will remain so.

Resistance against Israel because of its actions and treatment of Palestinians is understandable but either way the cause of the Palestinians isn't helped by that resistance. For there to be peace the Palestinians need a vocal authority that knows more than bullets as Israel will just use resistance violence as a free pass to do whatever it wants.

The IRA ultimately was never going to be able to achieve its aims but still NI/Ireland did not see progress towards the peace until the IRA agreed to lay down its arms.
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
Is it possible that they've already tried peaceful resistance and it didn't work out?

en.m.wikipedia.org

2018–2019 Gaza border protests - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
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Some of these posters are absolutely fuckin deluded. They seem to think the Occupation and theft of land isn't a problem. Convinced everything started on the 7th October. They know there's just less than ZERO percent chance the Israeli Goverment will ever remove the 700'000 Settlers off Stolen Land. Until that happens the Palestinians will fight on, Rightly so too.
 
The blue phantom said:
Some of these posters are absolutely fuckin deluded. They seem to think the Occupation and theft of land isn't a problem. Convinced everything started on the 7th October. They know there's just less than ZERO percent chance the Israeli Goverment will ever remove the 700'000 Settlers off Stolen Land. Until that happens the Palestinians will fight on, Rightly so too.
Click to expand...
The same delusion exists on the other side. Do people honestly think that Israel is going to just dissolve and all will be well? The west is never going to do that, the only way it could be achieved is through Iran dropping a nuclear bomb, not going to happen either.

The real solution is the middle road but you don't get a middle road with extremists on either side. Extremism on one side unfortunately breeds extremism on the other, that's the problem.

The two must coexist somehow but neither currently want that. Indeed Israel is the greatest contributor to the problem but some sort of solution has to be found or else ongoing war is the only option.
 
St.Pauli support said:
Agreed, but the 1 million dollar question is: who is 'we' ???

Extremists on both sides don't fancy painful compromises, which would be made by moderates though to reach a higher long term goal.

To disarm the extremists the moderates would have to radicalize, but that doesn't make much sense. We are lost.
Click to expand...

Good points. The moderates basically need to eradicate the extremists in their own countries! Which means civil war on top of the current conflict. What a mess.

inbetween said:
And this is ultimately the problem of the arguments against Israel. We can recognise the faults of Israel but we can't not recognise the reality that Israel is an internationally recognised country and will remain so.

Resistance against Israel because of its actions and treatment of Palestinians is understandable but either way the cause of the Palestinians isn't helped by that resistance. For there to be peace the Palestinians need a vocal authority that knows more than bullets as Israel will just use resistance violence as a free pass to do whatever it wants.

The IRA ultimately was never going to be able to achieve its aims but still NI/Ireland did not see progress towards the peace until the IRA agreed to lay down its arms.
Click to expand...

Some people just see it in 'Winning' and 'Losing' terms whilst many of us do not particularly care who wins and loses and just see it as a 'Living' or 'Dying' issue. I'm hopeful that the void left by Hamas is filled with people who are absolutely sick of this shit show and show a real willingness to negotiate. The Israelis, in return, could elect leaders who, likewise, have a real willingness to negotiate a mutually beneficial existence.

Wasn't the Northern Ireland peace movement led by two women? Wouldn't it be wonderful if two peace movements were created in each country and led by women? Women tend to think different to men!
 
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