Homophobia in football

[roy.or.r]

Genuine question, what rights do the LGBT community not have in 2024?

The right to not be discriminated against just because of their identity? The right to live freely without fear of persecution? Are you seriously asking this question?

 

[I'm With Stupid]

There may be a problem with football culture I suppose (fans) but as for the bloke in the article you posted, we just have to accept that he thinks homosexuality is a sin/haram or whatever and may be from a country where it gets you killed.

He's from Wolverhampton, so that's a fair point.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

Also IIRC, Ipswich Town has had a betting sponsor on their shirts. I don’t see him protesting that considering gambling is a sin in Islam.

They don't actually. But he has worn betting company logos without comment in the past.

They're actually sponsored by Ed Sheeran.

 

[Keeper!]

Just saw this:



Religion is so messed up. You can be openly homophobic if you want as long as you hide behind “religious reasons”.

Freedom and opinion of choice is that wrong?

Right or wrong he plays in a free country and he has the right to his opinion.

I would bet a fair amount that there are dozens of footballers wearing rainbow laces etc that are incredibly homophobic.

 

[KS55]

The right to not be discriminated against just because of their identity? The right to live freely without fear of persecution? Are you seriously asking this question?

This is not logical. The existence of the rights and their observance or lack of it are two separate issues.

 

[Dogtanian]

People getting mad about this and the people defending him getting mad about the Irish lad McClean who plays for Wrexham, freedom of opinion as long as it agrees eh

 

[ZenHalfTimeCrock]

'....due to his religious beliefs', eh?

Fair enough. Let's take a closer look at that.

The philosopher Anthony Kenny once commented as follows on the issue of a faulty conscience in his study of the medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas:

‘One important issue which he often discusses is the role of conscience, and the question of whether you should always obey your conscience. A lot of people have thought that, as long as you were obeying your conscience, everything was all right.

Aquinas rejects this. Your conscience may well be ill-informed, and you have a duty to better inform it. If you disobey your conscience, he says, you’re doing something wrong. But the mere fact that you are obeying your conscience doesn’t necessarily mean that what you’re doing is right.'

Fair enough. So here's the gay Catholic scholar John Boswell writing in 1980, before the Saudis started exporting their virulently homophobic Salafism worldwide, prior to the Iranian revolution (Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, former President: ''In Iran, we don't have homosexuals like in your country."), and well before ISIS started throwing gay men off roofs:

‘Although the Qur’an and early religious writings of Islam display mildly negative attitudes towards homosexuality, Islamic society has generally ignored these deprecations, and most Muslim cultures have treated homosexuality with indifference, if not admiration. Almost without exception, the classic works of Arabic poetry and prose, from Abu Nuwas to the Thousand and One Nights, treat gay people and their sexuality with respect or casual acceptance…

The Arabic language contains a huge vocabulary of gay erotic terminology…Erotic address by one male to another is the standard convention of Arabic love poetry; even poems really written to or for women use male pronouns and metaphors of male beauty: it is not uncommon to find poetry addressed to a female in which the object of the poet’s affections is praised for ‘a dark mustache over pearly white teeth’, or the ‘first downy beard over damask skin’. Poems about the physical allure of a young man’s first beard constitute an entire genre of Arabic poetry…’

Abu Nuwas was a hellraising, wine guzzling, bisexual libertine. And also one of the greatest of all Islamic poets. Here is one of his pieces:

I Miss Al-Hira*

By God, I dearly miss
Al-Hira and its wine
And the ‘oud strings’ sound at dawn
As the church bells chime,
And I miss the taverns at
The sacrifice time**
And spending, on drink and
Beardless youths, my every dime
By God, were you to hear
The Poems I’ve devised
Their splendour would leave you in
Despair till your demise

*formerly a famous centre for Nestorian Christianity in Iraq
**Eid-ul-Adha

Having said all that, the more recent and detailed number-crunching research presented by Steven Fish in his book Are Muslims Distinctive? A Look at the Evidence revealed that - although Muslims are actually not unusually religious or inclined to favour the fusion of religious and political authority, nor are Muslims especially prone to mass political violence - they are unusually intolerant of homosexuality.

So the landscape has certainly changed in that respect.

What to do?

Apparently, Eric Cantona receive lots of Rambo videos after he expressed a liking for a certain French poet in an early press conference.

So if I was an Ipswich supporter, I might send him an early Christmas present: a copy of this book inscribed with the first paragraph from Boswell above:

 

[ChicagoBlue]

I'm hopeful that's not how you handle CRM with your flying partners!

We aren't talking about who people are -- we're talking about when a team asks you to do something and you don't want to -- for whatever reason -- what do you do? Where should the lines be drawn -- professionally, socially and culturally?

I'm not saying individual talents can't drive success, of course. But there are far more stories of teams where individuals screwed up dynamics and were allowed to fester, or were booted and positive change was the result.

Let’s not deflect and denigrate my professionalism at work now…

I’ve been in far more dressing rooms where individuality was both understood and appreciated than those where someone’s personal beliefs had to be put to one side “for the good of the team.” And, let’s not forget, THIS EDICT IS NOT COMING FROM THE TEAM!!!

I’m all for the LGBTQ+ community having equal human rights. No issue whatsoever. What I’m not in favor of is their individuality trumping the individuality of those who don’t share their sentiments or approve of what they do in their personal lives. That doesn’t sound like the equality they even want, nor does displaying “the rainbow” (a made up symbol for their agenda) do a damned thing for expanding what it is I think they are actually seeking to achieve, which is REAL equality.

Being forced to wear a gay (or any other) symbol strikes me as ANTI, not PRO, freedom. Just as I dislike, but respect, James MacClean’s stance on the poppy on shirts, I respect an individuals right to SELF determination.

If Crystal Palace were smart…or had an ounce of nous…they would simply nominate someone else to be “Captain” of the side for the rainbow armband games. Currently, the only special thing they do is go to the toss up and talk to the refs. I have a feeling Guehi would be absolutely fine with that.

And, for what it’s worth, I think his writing about Jesus on his armband should get him a ban. He knows why he’s doing it and, while he should have been banned already but was only given a warning, his insistence on flouting the rule is a PERSONAL statement that has no place on his uniform.

Instead, were he a REAL CAPTAIN, he should have simply said “In good faith and with a clear conscience, I cannot wear this armband without writing a banned religious statement on it. Knowing this might elicit a negative response from the PL authorities, and not wanting to HARM MY TEAM, I wish to relinquish the armband while it is this rainbow symbol.”

Sorted. And, I would have had more respect for him…as a TEAMMATE! Palace can hardly afford their best defender getting a ban, can they, but he’s pushing his luck by trying to goad the PL into giving him one. WHO does that help? NOT HIS TEAMMATES!

Instead, we have everyone getting in a tizzy about individual freedoms, gay or religious, being juxtaposed against what is a forced societal acceptance of an edict handed down from the political virtue signalers.

Freedom isn’t free, especially if you feel society is impinging on yours.

 

[supercity88]

We want sport to be inclusive and it's important to people from all backgrounds, race, religions, gender and sexual orientation to see people they can relate to so that they feel comfortable they can be themselves or so that they can see someone "like them" which will inspire them to follow that path themselves.

It's an armband, just put it on and get over it. The message it sends if you modify it or choose not to wear it completely undermines the campaign and actually does more damage than the positivity that is supposed to come from it.

I'm a white heterosexual male. I don't need these things in my life. Everything I've grown up seeing or watching, all the systems that are in place suit me just fine. But messaging for women or people of a different skin colour didn't exist and the same remains for people of different sexual orientations etc.

I don't think it's a difficult thing to resolve. The clubs should just pick alternative captains who are comfortable wearing the armband without feeling the need to mention Jesus or without causing negativity around the campaign. If Morsy doesn't agree with it, give it to O'Shea for a couple of games. If Guehi doesn't feel he can wear it without letting Jesus know he still loves him, give it to Hughes for a couple of games.

 

[supercity88]

Freedom isn’t free, especially if you feel society is impinging on yours.

I feel a song coming on...

 

[I'm With Stupid]

That doesn’t sound like the equality they even want, nor does displaying “the rainbow” (a made up symbol for their agenda) do a damned thing for expanding what it is I think they are actually seeking to achieve, which is REAL equality.

Aren't all symbols made up?

 

[I'm With Stupid]

I don't think it's a difficult thing to resolve. The clubs should just pick alternative captains who are comfortable wearing the armband without feeling the need to mention Jesus or without causing negativity around the campaign. If Morsy doesn't agree with it, give it to O'Shea for a couple of games. If Guehi doesn't feel he can wear it without letting Jesus know he still loves him, give it to Hughes for a couple of games.

How would that make any difference? Everyone would still know why they were switching captains, so it'd be no different from choosing to not wear it.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

We want sport to be inclusive and it's important to people from all backgrounds, race, religions, gender and sexual orientation to see people they can relate to so that they feel comfortable they can be themselves or so that they can see someone "like them" which will inspire them to follow that path themselves.

What do “they” look like, so that I know when someone looks “like them”?

And, why no issues in the Women’s game or women’s sports, in general?

FWIW, even if you tell me how to spot a lesbian, it’s going to be about 40 years late for me! I walked a girl home from a bar one night in college and was dumbfounded when I tried to give her a good night kiss and she pulled back and laughed. “You know I’m on the Volleyball team, right? I’m a lesbian!” All I could think of to say in the moment was “…but you’re gorgeous!”…as if that meant she should like guys and I was entitled to a kiss!

Found out later (from another girl on the team) that the other players at the bar had all been daring her to kiss me goodnight! No such luck!!

What is the “tell” so I know what “like them” is?

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Aren't all symbols made up?

This one occurs in nature, but has been co-opted, so, no, they’re not all made up.

The one I posted is, though. It’s an EQUAL sign. Guess what it stands for!

 

[ChicagoBlue]

How would that make any difference? Everyone would still know why they were switching captains, so it'd be no different from choosing to not wear it.

He didn’t choose not to wear it, though, did he? He defaced it with a religious message.

 

[supercity88]

What do “they” look like, so that I know when someone looks “like them”?

And, why no issues in the Women’s game or women’s sports, in general?

FWIW, even if you tell me how to spot a lesbian, it’s going to be about 40 years late for me! I walked a girl home from a bar one night in college and was dumbfounded when I tried to give her a good night kiss and she pulled back and laughed. “You know I’m on the Volleyball team, right? I’m a lesbian!” All I could think of to say in the moment was “…but you’re gorgeous!”…as if that meant she should like guys and I was entitled to a kiss!

Found out later (from another girl on the team) that the other players at the bar had all been daring her to kiss me goodnight! No such luck!!

What is the “tell” so I know what “like them” is?

In some instances it is look and in others it's simply making it clear that the game is inclusive and open to all. At the moment there remains a negative culture around the men's game where people fear the response from fans if they were to come out. It doesn't promote inclusiveness or celebrate diversity the way it should. Black players are still racially abused. When it comes to LGBTQ clearly you can't "see" someone like yourself, but you can "see" that the game is welcoming and feel encouraged to either play the sport or go and watch it. That's all this is trying to do really. But sadly it's clearly too much of an issue for people and only does the opposite when people choose to deface the armband.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

In some instances it is look and in others it's simply making it clear that the game is inclusive and open to all. At the moment there remains a negative culture around the men's game where people fear the response from fans if they were to come out. It doesn't promote inclusiveness or celebrate diversity the way it should. Black players are still racially abused. When it comes to LGBTQ clearly you can't "see" someone like yourself, but you can "see" that the game is welcoming and feel encouraged to either play the sport or go and watch it. That's all this is trying to do really. But sadly it's clearly too much of an issue for people and only does the opposite when people choose to deface the armband.

1) I don’t think gay is something you need to see somewhere to gravitate towards it.

2) As you can see from the nonsense it has elicited, the “rainbow” signaling is working great, isn’t it?!

3) Forcing change, especially cultural change, down people’s throats doesn’t strike me as a very positive way of achieving what you say they are trying to achieve.

 

[Mon Autre]

How would that make any difference? Everyone would still know why they were switching captains, so it'd be no different from choosing to not wear it.

I think it would actually mean a something to gay supporters that their club stands with them in wanting a create an environment where they can feel safe going to the football, that they are welcome at their club and that the club appointing a leader on the pitch who represents those values.

 

[supercity88]

1) I don’t think gay is something you need to see somewhere to gravitate towards it.

2) As you can see from the nonsense it has elicited, the “rainbow” signaling is working great, isn’t it?!

3) Forcing change, especially cultural change, down people’s throats doesn’t strike me as a very positive way of achieving what you say they are trying to achieve.

But that's all from the perspective of someone who isn't gay. And that's my point. Who are we to say whether it's a good campaign or not. Clearly the idea behind it had support from those communities and they believed it to be a good way of promoting diversity and equality. It's not working because the focus is on those who aren't wearing the armband or defacing it rather than those who are, but as I said in my first post I didn't have an issue with all superheroes being white or all disney films having a handsome white man as the saviour whilst the poor women did whatever they could do be with him. Not our call.

 

[supercity88]

How would that make any difference? Everyone would still know why they were switching captains, so it'd be no different from choosing to not wear it.

It's a shame Walker doesn't mind supporting it, because I'd happily take the arm band off him for more than one game.