The Labour Government

jonny689 said:
It’s just words though, if she really cared why block a public enquiry?! Just another lying two faced politician saying one thing and doing the complete opposite!

Those who are complicit in the cover up should be held accountable!
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After the next enquiry , I think we should spend another 200 million on another one, and one more after that - what do you reckon ?
 
jonny689 said:
It’s just words though, if she really cared why block a public enquiry?! Just another lying two faced politician saying one thing and doing the complete opposite!

Those who are complicit in the cover up should be held accountable!
Click to expand...
A public inquiry that has cost millions already, £200m+, and is already complete.

The independent person who headed up that inquiry, Professor Alexis Jay, has already come out and said a 2nd inquiry is futile. They already know what needs doing based on the recommendations from the first inquiry.

Professor Alexis Jay has already said a 2nd enquiry would hinder the implementation of the findings from the first inquiry.

The Tories sat on the findings, Jenrick today was exposed by Nick Robinson for being the con-man he is. Labour are most likely in the process of using the findings to make changes.

Don't believe everything you read on social media. Jess Phillips genuinely cares about people, she doesn't always tow the party line, she's one of the best MP's this country has.
 
jonny689 said:
It’s just words though, if she really cared why block a public enquiry?! Just another lying two faced politician saying one thing and doing the complete opposite!

Those who are complicit in the cover up should be held accountable!
Click to expand...

we have had several - the last took 7 years at a cost of £200m which gave the Tories 20 recommendations with which they did nothing. The plan is to implement those recommendations asap - not waste another 7 years an £200m during which time more girls would be abused - is that what you prefer ?

BTW the actual stats are that 98% of the reported abusers were NOT men of Asian origin be it in a gang or alone.

www.bbc.co.uk

Victims want action, child abuse inquiry chair Alexis Jay says

"People need to step up to the mark" to tackle child abuse grooming gangs, Prof Alexis Jay tells BBC.
www.bbc.co.uk
 
jonny689 said:
It’s just words though, if she really cared why block a public enquiry?! Just another lying two faced politician saying one thing and doing the complete opposite!

Those who are complicit in the cover up should be held accountable!
Click to expand...
She didn't block a public enquiry. When asked she said it was more useful for it to be done on a local rather than national level because it IS more useful.
And calling a domestic abuse champion for the last 30 years a two faced liar about grooming gangs, you need to take yourself outside for a fucking word mate.
 
jonny689 said:
It’s just words though, if she really cared why block a public enquiry?! Just another lying two faced politician saying one thing and doing the complete opposite!

Those who are complicit in the cover up should be held accountable!
Click to expand...

The Oldham council asked for the home office to run the inquiry into child exploitation in their borough. Phillips replied saying how important inquiries were and due to successful other examples like Telford and Rotherham, it should be ran locally. At a national level, she said the focus is implementing the changes recommended in IICSA independent inquiry which was done nationally over seven years.

So what exactly do people currently have an issue with? Is it the home office not running and paying for an inquiry on behalf of Oldham council? Or is it they for some bizarre reason want to see a new national inquiry despite the initial request only being about a specific borough and no findings from the previous national inquiry actually being implemented yet?

I really do worry for the state of politics and the narrative in both social and mainstream media right now.
 
hilts said:
1 man/woman 1 vote is a cornerstone of democracy but unfortunately in our system every vote is not equal. If a politician and their party need a certain amount of support and they cannot help everyone then they need to pick certain demographics. The demographic they picked would often coincide with the group they felt they belonged to.
The secret, because we as a country are divided, is to convince enough of the group that would normally vote for the other lot that you are actually on their side. You can help them whilst also not damaging your own.
This is why the Tories put the ills of the world towards the neediest and Labour put it on the very rich. Middle England belongs to neither, its just a case of convincing enough of them you're right.
This time however due to a spectacularly inept govt and failing public services it didn't take as much of an effort. Although you will note that Starmer felt the need to ram home economic prudence daily.
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Surely whichever voting system we adopt the most 'popular' will come out as the most powerful? That's inbuilt into democracy and it's difficult to see how you can get the most 'worthy' elected over the most 'popular'. I watched a documentary on Einstein on Netflix (6.2 on IMB) and he was pretty scathing, as a German Jew he would be of course, of how easy it was for Hitler to manipulate the masses, a view seemingly shared by many today in the West today.

hilts said:
Personally I would have PR with limited MPs and redraw our counties if needed and have Mayor's with greater powers. Unfortunately this is where any discussion ends because MPs ain't gonna fall on their own sword and the public continue to vote for the current system and then take a side.
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I'm all for smaller state with greater local power IF the huge differential between regional wealth could be ironed out. One of my pet theories for equalising power, money and influence is to suggest a voting system where only the bottom 50% financially can vote. i.e. the top 50% do not get a vote. Mad I know!

hilts said:
The only way for meaningful improvement.is if we are actually all in it together and there is a long term plan. 5 year election cycles and the public make this impossible because each group will.argue that they already do their bit.
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100% agree with the uselessness of 5 year terms when short term pain has to be and perhaps should be endured for long term gain. However which government would we elect for 20 years of ruling without remission? Maybe if PR was brought in then the ensuing government would be more balanced and trustworthy?

hilts said:
As we continually recognise and need more and more services at more cost my feeling is its getting to the point where running a country is becoming an almost impossible task. We are being blagged constantly with a fresh new future. Its like being a Rag since the good old days went, every new is the turning point with all the answers-)
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Sunak, an intelligent man, went 6 months early with a General Election where the Tories were certain to get obliterated. Starmer, another intelligent man, has had to govern in those 6 months that Sunak decided were going to be utter shite. Sunak has been proven right! But yes, I think a lot of us think that running a divided country in a divided, competitive world is not as easy as it looks.

hilts said:
People have said I'm negative about it but I'm not I can just see the repetitive nature of it all. After the election I said posters would just flip their position.


Labour will blame the Tories just as the Tories tried to blame Labour. Labour supporters will support the kind of moves that they would berate the Tories for and vice versa. The Tories will have a fit when any group don't get financial support and Labour will mention money tress and stability. It's just groundhog day.

The only slight positive is that I find it hard to believe Labour will be as bad as the Tories but it doesn't mean they shouldn't be talked about. They wanted it, they sold a much better future. They will rightly be judged on that rather than just being a bit less shit.
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I must admit that the conversion of some posters who complained relentlessly about a Tory government suddenly turning into government groupies is a modern miracle performed by that magician Hypocricy. But what did you expect?

That said, I myself, at 66 have never voted for a party other than Labour. Even now, I am still trying, mentally, to become a floating voter where I just vote on the issues rather than as part of the Red Wall! My fucking loyalty fucking with me again!
There are other posters on here though who, I note, do not follow party lines and are much more independent of thought, and therefore more interesting, on many issues. Friend on one thread, enemy on another. That is good for democracy I think.
 
MCFC1993 said:
A public inquiry that has cost millions already, £200m+, and is already complete.

The independent person who headed up that inquiry, Professor Alexis Jay, has already come out and said a 2nd inquiry is futile. They already know what needs doing based on the recommendations from the first inquiry.

Professor Alexis Jay has already said a 2nd enquiry would hinder the implementation of the findings from the first inquiry.

The Tories sat on the findings, Jenrick today was exposed by Nick Robinson for being the con-man he is. Labour are most likely in the process of using the findings to make changes.

Don't believe everything you read on social media. Jess Phillips genuinely cares about people, she doesn't always tow the party line, she's one of the best MP's this country has.
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The thing people are mad about is that justice has still not been served! It sounds like previous inquiries have just been box ticking exercises without any substance! And in relation to the scale of the problem 200 million seems like a pittance to be honest. All recommendations ignored, that doesn’t surprise me. Where is the accountability?! How this shit can go on is incomprehensible!

Why hasn’t anyone been held to account and prosecuted for the cover up, that’s the issue! Starmer being an obvious culprit as he was head of the CPS for a period of time when this was all being brushed under the carpet but also Tories that didn’t act whilst in power, it’s sickening! All that should matter is justice for innocent children, everything else is irrelevant, and whatever it takes should be done to achieve it!

And to the person who mentioned the ethnicity it’s not about that. Saville’s lot at the BBC and the parasite class who were on board the lolita express to Epstein Island are as equally sickening and deplorable! Anyway rant over i’m out.
 
jonny689 said:
The thing people are mad about is that justice has still not been served! It sounds like previous inquiries have just been box ticking exercises without any substance! And in relation to the scale of the problem 200 million seems like a pittance to be honest. All recommendations ignored, that doesn’t surprise me. Where is the accountability?! How this shit can go on is incomprehensible!

Why hasn’t anyone been held to account and prosecuted for the cover up, that’s the issue! Starmer being an obvious culprit as he was head of the CPS for a period of time when this was all being brushed under the carpet but also Tories that didn’t act whilst in power, it’s sickening! All that should matter is justice for innocent children, everything else is irrelevant, and whatever it takes should be done to achieve it!

And to the person who mentioned the ethnicity it’s not about that. Saville’s lot at the BBC and the parasite class who were on board the lolita express to Epstein Island are as equally sickening and deplorable! Anyway rant over i’m out.
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Where are you’re getting your news sources from? Have you read the independent inquiries report?
 
jonny689 said:
The thing people are mad about is that justice has still not been served! It sounds like previous inquiries have just been box ticking exercises without any substance! And in relation to the scale of the problem 200 million seems like a pittance to be honest. All recommendations ignored, that doesn’t surprise me. Where is the accountability?! How this shit can go on is incomprehensible!

Why hasn’t anyone been held to account and prosecuted for the cover up, that’s the issue! Starmer being an obvious culprit as he was head of the CPS for a period of time when this was all being brushed under the carpet but also Tories that didn’t act whilst in power, it’s sickening! All that should matter is justice for innocent children, everything else is irrelevant, and whatever it takes should be done to achieve it!

And to the person who mentioned the ethnicity it’s not about that. Saville’s lot at the BBC and the parasite class who were on board the lolita express to Epstein Island are as equally sickening and deplorable! Anyway rant over i’m out.
Click to expand...

Not sure you actually care about what you are ranting about. If you did, you wouldn't be joining it in with making it a political football.
 
Palerider said:
Surely whichever voting system we adopt the most 'popular' will come out as the most powerful? That's inbuilt into democracy and it's difficult to see how you can get the most 'worthy' elected over the most 'popular'. I watched a documentary on Einstein on Netflix (6.2 on IMB) and he was pretty scathing, as a German Jew he would be of course, of how easy it was for Hitler to manipulate the masses, a view seemingly shared by many today in the West today.


I'm all for smaller state with greater local power IF the huge differential between regional wealth could be ironed out. One of my pet theories for equalising power, money and influence is to suggest a voting system where only the bottom 50% financially can vote. i.e. the top 50% do not get a vote. Mad I know!


100% agree with the uselessness of 5 year terms when short term pain has to be and perhaps should be endured for long term gain. However which government would we elect for 20 years of ruling without remission? Maybe if PR was brought in then the ensuing government would be more balanced and trustworthy?


Sunak, an intelligent man, went 6 months early with a General Election where the Tories were certain to get obliterated. Starmer, another intelligent man, has had to govern in those 6 months that Sunak decided were going to be utter shite. Sunak has been proven right! But yes, I think a lot of us think that running a divided country in a divided, competitive world is not as easy as it looks.


I must admit that the conversion of some posters who complained relentlessly about a Tory government suddenly turning into government groupies is a modern miracle performed by that magician Hypocricy. But what did you expect?

That said, I myself, at 66 have never voted for a party other than Labour. Even now, I am still trying, mentally, to become a floating voter where I just vote on the issues rather than as part of the Red Wall! My fucking loyalty fucking with me again!
There are other posters on here though who, I note, do not follow party lines and are much more independent of thought, and therefore more interesting, on many issues. Friend on one thread, enemy on another. That is good for democracy I think.
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On the first point to begin with the party with the most votes should have the biggest amount of power but what shouldn't happen is if someone only gets 40% of the votes they get a huge majority. No party in this country deserves a majority because the people as a whole aren't sufficiently impressed to give them one.

If Starmer had gone with his members and looked into PR the type of Tories we've had woukd never likely gain total control ever again. That is doing the country, his country a huge disservice. But the downside for Labour is they probably wouldn't get full control either. They would have to work with snp green lib dem etc and be a more co-operative govt.
They're in power though so its pretty much fuck that. It will come around again though when they aren't as popular and when they couldn't bring it in. This is what.i mean about short term thinking. It benefits them and that's why I don't have much time for them.

Whatever happens in the future these politicians will bank their wages, build up their rather generous pension, eat and drink at a nice little discount, employ family members and if that's not enough end up in the Lords.

We really only have two options vote for this to continue or don't. The fact people think they have to carry on with this to not waste a vote is the best con they've sold us.
 
hilts said:
On the first point to begin with the party with the most votes should have the biggest amount of power but what shouldn't happen is if someone only gets 40% of the votes they get a huge majority. No party in this country deserves a majority because the people as a whole aren't sufficiently impressed to give them one.

If Starmer had gone with his members and looked into PR the type of Tories we've had woukd never likely gain total control ever again. That is doing the country, his country a huge disservice. But the downside for Labour is they probably wouldn't get full control either. They would have to work with snp green lib dem etc and be a more co-operative govt.
They're in power though so its pretty much fuck that. It will come around again though when they aren't as popular and when they couldn't bring it in. This is what.i mean about short term thinking. It benefits them and that's why I don't have much time for them.

Whatever happens in the future these politicians will bank their wages, build up their rather generous pension, eat and drink at a nice little discount, employ family members and if that's not enough end up in the Lords.

We really only have two options vote for this to continue or don't. The fact people think they have to carry on with this to not waste a vote is the best con they've sold us.
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Absolutely right on the short term thinking and it’s that one thing that paralyses the country, more than any other. ALL the parties claim to believe in the NHS and universal eduction, for example and yet, very few years, the way these two fundamentals are organised, changes completely. In some cases they even change mid goevernemt as yet another totally unqualified minister wants to ‘make their mark’.

I’ve never worked out why we can’t just agree some basic principles on how everyday things will be organised and financed, what infrastructure we need, what defence spending and military size we need (they all think we should spend 2-2.5% of GDP on defence, but neither of them ever do it).
 
jonny689 said:
It’s just words though, if she really cared why block a public enquiry?! Just another lying two faced politician saying one thing and doing the complete opposite!

Those who are complicit in the cover up should be held accountable!
Click to expand...
THere has been several enquiries and their is no 'cover up'
 
The Light Was Yellow Sir said:
Absolutely right on the short term thinking and it’s that one thing that paralyses the country, more than any other. ALL the parties claim to believe in the NHS and universal eduction, for example and yet, very few years, the way these two fundamentals are organised, changes completely. In some cases they even change mid goevernemt as yet another totally unqualified minister wants to ‘make their mark’.

I’ve never worked out why we can’t just agree some basic principles on how everyday things will be organised and financed, what infrastructure we need, what defence spending and military size we need (they all think we should spend 2-2.5% of GDP on defence, but neither of them ever do it).
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There was something last week that Streeting is trying to put together a consensus agreement on social care - it needs to be consensus as it will be expensive and will likely take more than 1 parliamentary term to complete.
 
MillionMilesAway said:
There was something last week that Streeting is trying to put together a consensus agreement on social care - it needs to be consensus as it will be expensive and will likely take more than 1 parliamentary term to complete.
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Streeting is, sadly, way, way out of his depth and, in reality, he’s just kicking the can down the road, once again. There is absolutely no reason to hold yet another enquiry as Dilnot did the Social Care piece and published it in 2021. The answer in 2028 (should it be on time) will be no different to Dilnot’s and they should just grasp the nettle and get on with it.

Much of the ills of the NHS, save for investment in modern technology, a massive reduction in the bedbase, and fewer doctors than almost any other western country, is always traceable to ‘flow’ issues. (In the wider economy, Government calls them supply chain issues when it’s something they don’t want to be blamed for). Hospitals can’t empty people out, because they’ve nowhere to go, so A&E gets full. Patient get treated in A&E rather than on a ward due to,
Ack of beds, other people get kept waiting in ambulances, because A&E is full, other people are kept waiting at home because the ambulances are full and people are leaving in their droves because this wasn’t what they were signed up for. (I know paramedics who are spending their entire shift in an ambulance outside A&E) not actually doing what they’ve been trained for. Australia and Canada are waiting for the, with open arms, a proper shift pattern and hefty pay increases……
 
The Light Was Yellow Sir said:
Streeting is, sadly, way, way out of his depth and, in reality, he’s just kicking the can down the road, once again. There is absolutely no reason to hold yet another enquiry as Dilnot did the Social Care piece and published it in 2021. The answer in 2028 (should it be on time) will be no different to Dilnot’s and they should just grasp the nettle and get on with it.

Much of the ills of the NHS, save for investment in modern technology, a massive reduction in the bedbase, and fewer doctors than almost any other western country, is always traceable to ‘flow’ issues. (In the wider economy, Government calls them supply chain issues when it’s something they don’t want to be blamed for). Hospitals can’t empty people out, because they’ve nowhere to go, so A&E gets full. Patient get treated in A&E rather than on a ward due to,
Ack of beds, other people get kept waiting in ambulances, because A&E is full, other people are kept waiting at home because the ambulances are full and people are leaving in their droves because this wasn’t what they were signed up for. (I know paramedics who are spending their entire shift in an ambulance outside A&E) not actually doing what they’ve been trained for. Australia and Canada are waiting for the, with open arms, a proper shift pattern and hefty pay increases……
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Sure, I wasn't thinking about having another inquiry.

Whoever cracks fixing social care is some kind of miracleworker - whoever does it, it'll likely be the next parliament who get the benefit and the current one that takes the blame for the cost. Fixing the bottlenecks you mention would be a good start.
 
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