President Trump

ChicagoBlue said:
The reason for it was exactly the reason Musk would be in jail…tyranny of the decision-maker, which used to be the King, but is now an “always offended” political class.

Of course there might be a balancing act, but who decides where the tipping point is?

In the States, we do actually have some guardrails on speech, but they’re exceedingly broad, and rare, (“Fire!” in a crowded theatre being the oft-quoted example) so as not to snare people who are merely expressing an opinion that is not in vogue or appreciated by the current zeitgeist.

And, believe me, I agree that X is a complete cesspit of drivel, bots, and ubiquitous right wing commercials. My concern, as always, with censorship is “Who decides?” and “Who will be deciding tomorrow?” If it is me, great!
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Was it just opinion or outright lies?
 
flook said:
if the alternative is to allow hate crime lies to be peddled without redress,then perhaps yes
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One man’s “hate crime lies”…

As I’ve said, it’s a slippery slope and the only question is which “decider” puts how much grease on the slope?

I prefer personal outrage as a determinant factor. We are seeing it with Musk already. People turning in their Tesla, sales in the toilet, and people with them putting stickers on them!

For example…

 
ChicagoBlue said:
In a world where facts are opinion, what is a lie?

See the problem?

Objectivity almost doesn’t exist in politics and political speech anymore. And, that seems to be the crux of the issue, not interpersonal relations.
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Well the stuff claimed by Musk weren't just opinions.

It wasn't an opinion that a Muslim carried out the Southport attack.
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
Well the stuff claimed by Musk weren't just opinions.

It wasn't an opinion that a Muslim carried out the Southport attack.
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And I agree in that specific case, but you’re missing, or ignoring, the wider point…

If every utterance is scrutinized, given oxygen, and then followed through with some sanction, it only elevates it. Let it exist, or die, in the public square, where society gets to decide, not some cheap suit looking for a cheap political stunt to help him win the next election.

I know some think prosecution would stop it, but is that what you want? I know the authorities do, because they get to decide what is and is not prosecuted…TODAY.

Tomorrow, what will you be able to say without fear of reprisal from the govt? How will you know? Is there a list of words, thoughts, ideas, philosophies? And, who decides?

I am willing to suffer a dozen obnoxious, repugnant, xenophobic, racist, bigoted remarks just so I can listen to something informative, but against the ideology, feelings, safe space of those currently in power.

Let me decide what to ignore. This whole thing about there being bad words and phrases that incite people is clearly true for sheeple, but why should I have to wear a diaper because they shit their pants?

(Enjoyed the chat, but been up all night and will have to pick it up later, even though it’ll be the end of your day. Sorry.)
 
ChicagoBlue said:
And I agree in that specific case, but you’re missing, or ignoring, the wider point…

If every utterance is scrutinized, given oxygen, and then followed through with some sanction, it only elevates it. Let it exist, or die, in the public square, where society gets to decide, not some cheap suit looking for a cheap political stunt to help him win the next election.

I know some think prosecution would stop it, but is that what you want? I know the authorities do, because they get to decide what is and is not prosecuted…TODAY.

Tomorrow, what will you be able to say without fear of reprisal from the govt? How will you know? Is there a list of words, thoughts, ideas, philosophies? And, who decides?

I am willing to suffer a dozen obnoxious, repugnant, xenophobic, racist, bigoted remarks just so I can listen to something informative, but against the ideology, feelings, safe space of those currently in power.

Let me decide what to ignore. This whole thing about there being bad words and phrases that incite people is clearly true for sheeple, but why should I have to wear a diaper because they shit their pants?

(Enjoyed the chat, but been up all night and will have to pick it up later, even though it’ll be the end of your day. Sorry.)
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Eh? Gulf of Mexico, anyone?
How about Mexico North or even Canada South?
 
ChicagoBlue said:
I prefer personal outrage as a determinant factor. We are seeing it with Musk already. People turning in their Tesla, sales in the toilet, and people with them putting stickers on them!
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Whilst there is obviously a place for this type of "resistance" for want of a better word, when you have the worlds richest man and the worlds most powerful shitgibbon in cahoots, able to lie without consequence in support of their personal goals, which include threatening sovereign nations, excluding another sovereign nation from "peace talks" with the aggressor on that nation, not to mention leaving their own citizens without healthcare and jobs, riding roughshod over the countries constitution and showing nothing but contempt for the law of the land, then maybe a bumper sticker doesn't quite cut it
 
ChicagoBlue said:
So it’s the mechanism not the message?

Did the mechanism change people’s minds or was that the massive migration issues that have dominated European politics for the recent past? Wasn’t that what Brexit was about for many? Isn’t that why Meloni was elected? Macron is in trouble? AfD is so resurgent?

All of that is the result of a mechanism dragging people by the nose to a place they weren’t already occupying or wanted to go?

Nah.
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When people are sold a lie, of which the propagation of that lie is carefully controlled by an algorithm designed to make sure that lie reaches its target audience, then yes people are being cajoled into doing things they wouldn't necessarily have done had it not been for that lie.
 
ChicagoBlue said:
My concern about this mentality is that it ignores the reality of what is going on in the world to simply label it as stupid.

Trump is trying, and apparently succeeding, in creating a right wing paradigm shift. There are multiple levels to it, and much of the domestic aspects of it are being semi-hidden, shuffled down the news cycle headlines, and being done behind closed doors.

On the other hand, the global aspect of it is being done right now, in your face, without excuse or explanation.

Too much money being wasted, too much money to be made. The major global players all have too much to gain from a successful outcome to the above for it not to happen.

In America, this means business and the wealthy have literally trillions of dollars to divvy up between themselves if this “new wave” actually breaks open the America of yesterday.

If you’re tired of hearing the words “waste, fraud and abuse,” you need to sit down, turn the sound down on everything, and crack a book.

Civil service and bureaucrats are now Public Enemy Number 1 in American government and F’Elon Musk and his DOGE Bros are inside the machine blowing it up. Where, and more importantly how, it all ends remains to be seen, but one thing is certain…Trump and the people in the shadows pulling his strings are moving at lightning speed to make certain they can get it past the tipping point of being reassembled in any past guise before the Midterms, because losing the House or Senate makes all of it much more difficult.

While it’s clear there is WF&A in the U.S. bureaucracy, as there is in all of them, the term is really being used as a smokescreen for both gutting the social service aspects of Federal Spending and the deep reduction of the U.S. military budget, which is bloated beyond any realistic level. Couple this with Trump’s nationalistic isolationism and you can envisage their dream of a shrinking U.S. global military footprint that frees up hundreds of billions of dollars.

To be fair, there is good and bad about all of this, but the balance is a cause of concern, as is the manner in which it is all being done!

Maybe, as will be asserted, this “Shock and Awe” approach was the only way to do it. “Rip the Band-Aid off” as it were, and it’ll only hurt for a little while.

That might be true of the financial hits, but the second and third order effects on workers, inflation, tax rates, interest rates, the level of social services and whether they’re damaging to (m)any, not to mention the seismic political shift underway.

May you live in interesting times…
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I know what he’s trying to do and it’s just not stupid. He’s a Nazi rapist, nothing he does is funny. But, the US is like a dystopian, religious cult theme park. Wouldn’t be so bad, if you voting that scumbag in only affected the US. We aren’t a month in and the chaos the fat sack of moronic shit has caused already is off the scale.

Never have so many morons ever been present in such numbers, as you have today in the US and they are allowed to vote.
 
One of the issues that American has that others don’t is if they push people past tipping points they have guns, when they all start turning on people like Musk etc it will get very tasty, all these people in power don’t have loads of security I can see a few been popped off as peoples social security don’t arrive and they start to lose their jobs/homes farms etc.
 
Trevor Morley's Tache said:
When people are sold a lie, of which the propagation of that lie is carefully controlled by an algorithm designed to make sure that lie reaches its target audience, then yes people are being cajoled into doing things they wouldn't necessarily have done had it not been for that lie.
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I think it's hard to square this with the long history of dangerous politicians in the US and elsewhere. There was no social media when fascists took power in Europe, for example.
 
Blue Maverick said:
One of the issues that American has that others don’t is if they push people past tipping points they have guns, when they all start turning on people like Musk etc it will get very tasty, all these people in power don’t have loads of security I can see a few been popped off as peoples social security don’t arrive and they start to lose their jobs/homes farms etc.
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www.nytimes.com

Nothing Divides Voters Like Owning a Gun (Published 2017)

No other demographic characteristic is creating such a consistent geographic split, according to survey data.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

www.pewresearch.org

The demographics of gun ownership

Understanding gun ownership in America is not as simple as knowing who does and does not own a gun. Some Americans who don’t personally own guns live with
www.pewresearch.org www.pewresearch.org
 
ChicagoBlue said:
And I agree in that specific case, but you’re missing, or ignoring, the wider point…

If every utterance is scrutinized, given oxygen, and then followed through with some sanction, it only elevates it. Let it exist, or die, in the public square, where society gets to decide, not some cheap suit looking for a cheap political stunt to help him win the next election.

I know some think prosecution would stop it, but is that what you want? I know the authorities do, because they get to decide what is and is not prosecuted…TODAY.

Tomorrow, what will you be able to say without fear of reprisal from the govt? How will you know? Is there a list of words, thoughts, ideas, philosophies? And, who decides?

I am willing to suffer a dozen obnoxious, repugnant, xenophobic, racist, bigoted remarks just so I can listen to something informative, but against the ideology, feelings, safe space of those currently in power.

Let me decide what to ignore. This whole thing about there being bad words and phrases that incite people is clearly true for sheeple, but why should I have to wear a diaper because they shit their pants?

(Enjoyed the chat, but been up all night and will have to pick it up later, even though it’ll be the end of your day. Sorry.)
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You are... wow.
 
ChicagoBlue said:
And I agree in that specific case, but you’re missing, or ignoring, the wider point…

If every utterance is scrutinized, given oxygen, and then followed through with some sanction, it only elevates it. Let it exist, or die, in the public square, where society gets to decide, not some cheap suit looking for a cheap political stunt to help him win the next election.

I know some think prosecution would stop it, but is that what you want? I know the authorities do, because they get to decide what is and is not prosecuted…TODAY.

Tomorrow, what will you be able to say without fear of reprisal from the govt? How will you know? Is there a list of words, thoughts, ideas, philosophies? And, who decides?

I am willing to suffer a dozen obnoxious, repugnant, xenophobic, racist, bigoted remarks just so I can listen to something informative, but against the ideology, feelings, safe space of those currently in power.

Let me decide what to ignore. This whole thing about there being bad words and phrases that incite people is clearly true for sheeple, but why should I have to wear a diaper because they shit their pants?

(Enjoyed the chat, but been up all night and will have to pick it up later, even though it’ll be the end of your day. Sorry.)
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Is the world designed for people of your intelligence? Or is it designed for people of average to below average intelligence?

Even on this forum there's people who supported riots because they have anti immigration and racist views. People so full of hate that they consume lies about immigrants completely uncritically.

Do you think that bad actors should be able to spread lies and use these people to cause chaos?
 
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