Russian invasion of Ukraine

BobKowalski said:
Ukraine like Europe has to determine its own path and future and both need to do this without the US or Russia. This is our home and if we can’t determine what happens in our home we are sunk.
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This is what I don't really understand in the mainland European reaction. I get some of the anger over Trump's rug pull because he and his administration are dickheads and now Europe needs to scramble to find the money to defend Europe. In the longer term it should be seen is an opportunity for European leaders to take the initiative and start defending their own continent. To me they will be much safer as an independent power bloc.

And suppose nothing had changed in the US role in NATO. Now let's say the worst happens and there's a war with China over Taiwan in ~2030. The US and its Pacific allies need to throw everything they have at China, and Putin takes advantage of the situation to invade a NATO ally. Does anyone think with the best intentions, the US would play a decisive role in Europe? How could we, absent a nuclear exchange? Wouldn't Europe be safer if it could solve that problem on its own?
 
A member of the European Parliament has claimed that Donald Trump has given Europe three weeks to sign Ukraine's "surrender."

Earlier this week, the United States and Russia began peace negotiations in Saudi Arabia without inviting Ukraine to the table.

As the conflict approaches its fourth year, Donald Trump is eager to reach a peace agreement quickly and is pressuring Ukraine to accept a deal negotiated without its involvement—an unthinkable option for Volodymyr Zelenskyy.


In a post shared on X, Mika Aaltola, a Finnish parliamentarian from the European People's Party, wrote that the United States had issued an ultimatum to the European Union to "accept the terms of Ukraine's surrender."

The Nordic politician was referring to the bilateral agreement being negotiated exclusively between Washington and Moscow.

"Trump prioritizes Russia's security concerns now and in the future. Let them own their mess. We have three weeks to grow up," Mika Aaltola added.
 
mrcunny said:
A member of the European Parliament has claimed that Donald Trump has given Europe three weeks to sign Ukraine's "surrender."

Earlier this week, the United States and Russia began peace negotiations in Saudi Arabia without inviting Ukraine to the table.

As the conflict approaches its fourth year, Donald Trump is eager to reach a peace agreement quickly and is pressuring Ukraine to accept a deal negotiated without its involvement—an unthinkable option for Volodymyr Zelenskyy.


In a post shared on X, Mika Aaltola, a Finnish parliamentarian from the European People's Party, wrote that the United States had issued an ultimatum to the European Union to "accept the terms of Ukraine's surrender."

The Nordic politician was referring to the bilateral agreement being negotiated exclusively between Washington and Moscow.

"Trump prioritizes Russia's security concerns now and in the future. Let them own their mess. We have three weeks to grow up," Mika Aaltola added.
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Trump will roundly get told to fuck off and take his troops with him then.
 
BobKowalski said:
For me it’s the people who suck up to the ****. You know what the **** is and what it does. Those who twist and bend to fit in with the **** are worse. These people nauseate me.
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It reveals the very worst of human nature. Just how far and how many people are prepared to debase their dignity and principles for the merest crumbs of power.
 
"And I’m not trying to make Putin like, nicer or better. I’m just telling you the fact that war should have never happened."

Trump blames Joe Biden and Zelensky's poor negotiating as proximate drivers for Russia's invasion. When Trump keeps repeating himself - complaining over and over about the number of dead and destroyed infrastructure as his bottom-line - calmer heads are paying attention. Such as Emmanuel Macron.

Critics of Trump believe that he listens to the last person who talks: fine, then we'd better hope the last person talking to him is pro-Ukrainian General Kellogg, a Trump loyalist who has the complete trust of Trump.

As for licensing the extraction and processing of rare-earth materials in the Ukraine this in and of itself will bolster Ukrainian security.

www.mediaite.com

Trump Blames Russian Invasion on Biden and Zelensky Saying the Wrong Things — Admits Russia Did a ‘Bad Thing’

Trump reiterated his attacks on Ukrainian President Zelenksy and threw former President Biden under the bus, but still seemed to give Vladimir Putin a pass.
www.mediaite.com www.mediaite.com

"...addressing a fringe event at the Scottish Labour conference in Glasgow on Friday, senior minister Pat McFadden stressed the importance of maintaining a “good and constructive relationship” with the White House.
He said: “I think the UK is potentially in a good position with this administration, if we handle it correctly.

“Handling it correctly doesn’t mean following every twist and turn of every comment, but is focusing on what will actually happen as well as what was said.”

...Mr Trump’s Ukraine envoy, retired general Keith Kellogg, praised Mr Zelensky on Friday as an “embattled and courageous leader of a nation at war” following what he described as “extensive and positive discussions” between the two men.

Sir Keir’s visit to the White House will follow a meeting between Mr Trump and Emmanuel Macron on Monday, at which the French president has said he intends to tell his American counterpart not to “be weak” in the face of Mr Putin.
In an hour-long question-and-answer session on social media, Mr Macron said he would tell Mr Trump: “It’s not you, it’s not your trademark, it’s not in your interest.

“How can you then be credible in the face of China if you’re weak in the face of Putin?”

www.standard.co.uk

UK must handle Trump relationship ‘correctly’, says senior minister

Sir Keir Starmer is due to meet Donald Trump in Washington next week amid growing concern about US support for Ukraine.
www.standard.co.uk www.standard.co.uk

I agree with President Trump that Europe needs to pull its weight. Europe needs to invest in its defense. I fully agree with this. This is a message that really goes back 14 years to President Obama. In the east of Europe, in Latvia and the Baltic countries in Poland, we heeded this message. We have invested in our defense. We are up, you know, up to snuff, shall we say, in terms of what we need to do, but the rest of Europe, the larger parts of Europe, the big countries, like Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain, these countries are, unfortunately, not there. And we need them to follow our example so that the US could pivot more to Asia, to the Pacific. Europe can and should do it.

Martin: Do you think that this is a tactic, a negotiating tactic, to get Europe to boost its defense spending? Or do you think there's something else behind it?

Karins: I would be the happiest person in the world, if this were a tactic, and certainly whatever Trump's ultimate goal is, he is having the effect that is needed, that is rattling, shall we say, some of the more complacent European leaders into action.

This is very, very good news. What is unclear to me is, if this is a tactic, what is the purpose of actually saying complete falsehoods? Saying that democratically elected Zelensky is a dictator, but not saying that non-democratically elected Putin is not. So the tactic that sort of makes sense on one part, but it doesn't make sense. Why is the U.S. president saying the things that he's saying?

 
Churchlawtonblue said:
That Starmer and Macron have done nothing to end the war and that he's sick of Zelensky.
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mosssideblue said:
Really has nailed his colours. Hope the **** dies a quick painful death
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To be honest I would rather we went our own way than associate ourselves with Trumps America. He is going to pull out of Nato and I see little point in keeping US bases in the UK.

It will cost us more in tax or borrowing to replace and improve our defences, but so be it.
 
BobKowalski said:
I considered that, but once they’ve sucked the country dry what then? You can’t make deals on this basis, too much hostage to fortune and with other preconditions like disarmament, no European involvement either commercially or militarily you are exposed to further aggression.

Doing a deal with the EU for shared mineral rights in return for funding and investment to rebuild the country and European forces acting as a peacekeeping force would be preferable and even then there is an element of coercion.

Ukraine like Europe has to determine its own path and future and both need to do this without the US or Russia. This is our home and if we can’t determine what happens in our home we are sunk.
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It takes years to develop these mines to begin to extract so it would buy them plenty of time in that sense. Ukraines natural resources were always my thought process as to the objectives of why Russia went in - I posted as much not long after the 2022 invasion.

I do agree Europe and Ukraine need to develop their own path and future but the sad reality is we are nowhere near in a position to do so - we in Europe simply can’t support Ukraine sufficiently to keep them in the fight for any length of time.

I’m not a fan of anyone getting mining rights under such circumstances so I no more agree he should fall in to bed with the US on this than he should fall in to bed with the EU on this, or anyone else like China for that matter. But I get why it might seem like the least shit option. Pragmatically Zelensky might want to be duplicitous here and say yes to US mining rights if Trump defends his country. Then fuck the orange chimp off once Europe is in a position to hold their own against Russia. Or go for the nuclear option and offer them to China…

MUPA (Make Ukraine Peaceful Again)… it’s already proven it’s great!!
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
To be honest I would rather we went our own way than associate ourselves with Trumps America. He is going to pull out of Nato and I see little point in keeping US bases in the UK.

It will cost us more in tax or borrowing to replace and improve our defences, but so be it.
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Totally agree. The American public have fucked up big style voting this turd in and they will soon come to realise it.
 
metalblue said:
It takes years to develop these mines to begin to extract so it would buy them plenty of time in that sense. Ukraines natural resources were always my thought process as to the objectives of why Russia went in - I posted as much not long after the 2022 invasion.

I do agree Europe and Ukraine need to develop their own path and future but the sad reality is we are nowhere near in a position to do so - we in Europe simply can’t support Ukraine sufficiently to keep them in the fight for any length of time.

I’m not a fan of anyone getting mining rights under such circumstances so I no more agree he should fall in to bed with the US on this than he should fall in to bed with the EU on this, or anyone else like China for that matter. But I get why it might seem like the least shit option. Pragmatically Zelensky might want to be duplicitous here and say yes to US mining rights if Trump defends his country. Then fuck the orange chimp off once Europe is in a position to hold their own against Russia. Or go for the nuclear option and offer them to China…

MUPA (Make Ukraine Peaceful Again)… it’s already proven it’s great!!
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I could get behind MUPA :)

I don’t disagree with your overall sentiment, but I do think Europe can hold their own against Russia. Collectively we have the economic and military base to do so, especially considering the losses Russia has already suffered.

Politically is where Europe has been lacking. The will to come out from under the US umbrella. Europe has to find that will.
 
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