UK supreme court ruling on legal definition of a woman

[The perfect fumble]

The Supreme Court ruling published at 10:08

"The unanimous decision of this court is that the terms woman and sex in the Equality Act 2010 refer to a biological woman and biological sex.

judge Lord Hodge UK Supreme Court

Remarkable scenes inside Supreme Court​

​

There were remarkable scenes inside the Supreme Court after the judges left the bench. Campaigners who had brought this case hugged each other and punched the air. Several of them were in tears.

Susan Smith of For Women Scotland told me: “It’s almost unbelievable after so many years to finally have got a ruling which reflects everything we’ve always said.”
..................

This is great news.

 

[TinFoilHat]

Awaits the pile on PF...

I wondered when this thread would appear.

I agree with the judgment btw.

 

[youngbob]

As someone on the opposite side of this, I really just want to know... What are transgender women expected to do now? I hear so much from gender critical people that trans women shouldn't be allowed in women's single sex spaces. Okay, fine. But... where are they supposed to go? The ruling has been made so I want answers now.

The obvious response is "the correct dressing rooms/toilets", etc.

But if the argument from gender critical people is that men are inherently violent creatures who can't be controlled, then how does the world become a safer place by telling (as gender critical people see it) effeminate men to go into a men's changing room? Surely that just makes that person a target for violence from their own sex?

I really am willing to listen because I feel like I've never had an answer, and the lack of answers just makes me think that the end goal among gender critical types is for transgender women to not exist at all.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Awaits the pile on PF...

I wondered when this thread would appear.

I agree with the judgement btw.

It can't go by without comment, it's a fantastic victory for women and girls.

 

[blueinsa]

Common sense and a victory for women.

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

Absolute common sense, there was never going to be any other way because that was madness. And I am sick of society taking the madness route that leads to further bigger problems down the line.

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

As someone on the opposite side of this, I really just want to know... What are transgender women expected to do now? I hear so much from gender critical people that trans women shouldn't be allowed in women's single sex spaces. Okay, fine. But... where are they supposed to go? The ruling has been made so I want answers now.

The obvious response is "the correct dressing rooms/toilets", etc.

But if the argument from gender critical people is that men are inherently violent creatures who can't be controlled, then how does the world become a safer place by telling (as gender critical people see it) effeminate men to go into a men's changing room? Surely that just makes that person a target for violence from their own sex?

I really am willing to listen because I feel like I've never had an answer, and the lack of answers just makes me think that the end goal among gender critical types is for transgender women to not exist at all.

What is the opposite side ? I dont understand. But toilets for trans people is a thing,.

 

[youngbob]

What is the opposite side ? I dont understand. But toilets for trans people is a thing,.

I don't recall ever going into a building where there were men's toilets, women's toilets, and then a third toilet block especially for "trans people". For transgender women, the alternative to using women's toilets is using men's toilets (or, in a pinch disabled toilets). Is the world likely to be a safer place with transgender women using men's toilets, using men's changing rooms, or playing sports with men? You can see why someone would be concerned about a potential increase in hate crimes.

 

[Elbow beards]

As someone on the opposite side of this, I really just want to know... What are transgender women expected to do now? I hear so much from gender critical people that trans women shouldn't be allowed in women's single sex spaces. Okay, fine. But... where are they supposed to go? The ruling has been made so I want answers now.

The obvious response is "the correct dressing rooms/toilets", etc.

But if the argument from gender critical people is that men are inherently violent creatures who can't be controlled, then how does the world become a safer place by telling (as gender critical people see it) effeminate men to go into a men's changing room? Surely that just makes that person a target for violence from their own sex?

I really am willing to listen because I feel like I've never had an answer, and the lack of answers just makes me think that the end goal among gender critical types is for transgender women to not exist at all.

Unisex toilets, I've been in bars in town with them and there doesn't seem to be a problem.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Awaits the pile on PF...

I wondered when this thread would appear.

I agree with the judgement btw.

Judgment.

 

[Giovinco]

Unisex toilets, I've been in bars in town with them and there doesn't seem to be a problem.

I've seen a few incidents whereby women have been complaining about men using the urinals and leaving the door open etc....

 

[youngbob]

Unisex toilets, I've been in bars in town with them and there doesn't seem to be a problem.

But here's the issue - the gender critical people who have forced this legislature through are also against unisex toilets, mostly for the same reasons they don't want transgender women using women's toilets. They just do want "men" anywhere near them.

And I have to ask, how many buildings have you been in where there have been unisex toilets or changing rooms? 99% of businesses and public buildings have men's toilets and women's toilets, and maybe one or two disabled toilets dotted about.

Yeah, in a utopia we all have a private lockable cubicle with a toilet and sink. But considering 99% of UK businesses aren't about to re-do their entire plumbing and renovate their toilets, what is the alternative for transgender women who up to today would have used women's toilets?

 

[The perfect fumble]

 

[youngbob]

As someone on the opposite side of this, I really just want to know... What are transgender women expected to do now? I hear so much from gender critical people that trans women shouldn't be allowed in women's single sex spaces. Okay, fine. But... where are they supposed to go? The ruling has been made so I want answers now.

The obvious response is "the correct dressing rooms/toilets", etc.

But if the argument from gender critical people is that men are inherently violent creatures who can't be controlled, then how does the world become a safer place by telling (as gender critical people see it) effeminate men to go into a men's changing room? Surely that just makes that person a target for violence from their own sex?

I really am willing to listen because I feel like I've never had an answer, and the lack of answers just makes me think that the end goal among gender critical types is for transgender women to not exist at all.

Still waiting for an answer to this.

If you agree with the ruling @blueinsa and @The perfect fumble then please, I really want to know, what are transgender women supposed to do now they (presumably) can't use women's toilets, can't use women's changing rooms, and can't play sports with other women?

I know, I know, "use men's toilets", etc. But do you think we become a safer, less violent nation with transgender women in men's spaces? If it's true after all that men are inherently the more violent sex, do you not think that hate crimes against transgender women are going to spike once they're in a room of men on their own?

Beyond all the calls for "common sense" and "there are two genders and that's it," I've not heard from one gender critical person what transgender women are supposed to do when they're confronted with the possibility of being violently assaulted once they start rocking up in men's changing rooms and toilets?

 

[KS55]

As someone on the opposite side of this, I really just want to know... What are transgender women expected to do now? I hear so much from gender critical people that trans women shouldn't be allowed in women's single sex spaces. Okay, fine. But... where are they supposed to go? The ruling has been made so I want answers now.

The obvious response is "the correct dressing rooms/toilets", etc.

But if the argument from gender critical people is that men are inherently violent creatures who can't be controlled, then how does the world become a safer place by telling (as gender critical people see it) effeminate men to go into a men's changing room? Surely that just makes that person a target for violence from their own sex?

I really am willing to listen because I feel like I've never had an answer, and the lack of answers just makes me think that the end goal among gender critical types is for transgender women to not exist at all.

While the judgement is correct legally, it doesn’t cover the practical situation on the ground.
I look at it like this:
1. Trans women are biologically male. ( the legal decision.)
2. Trans women are psychologically female.
3. Trans women are socially female eg dress, appearance etc.
So the legal definition is not enough.
Is it practical or desirable to have separate facilities for trans women? (and the rare trans men)

 

[The perfect fumble]

Anyone for waffle, dither and fudge?....

1. Harman: 'Ruling protects rights of women and trans women'
   

   published at 11:01
   ​

   
   
   Former Labour MP Harriet Harman has praised the Supreme Court for "correctly" interpreting the Equality Act in today's judgement.
   
   "Single sex spaces for women are important & can exclude trans women but only where necessary", she writes in a social media post.
   
   "The Act, & ruling, protects rights of women while also respecting the rights of trans women."
   
   Harman, who now chairs a women's rights group, was involved in drafting the Equality Act, and she says today's ruling gives "effect to our intention when drafting it".​

 

[BlueHammer85]

less than 1% have gender dysphoria, the whole thing blown out of proportion by the usual right-wing outlets.

 

[KS55]

Anyone for waffle, dither and fudge?....

1. Harman: 'Ruling protects rights of women and trans women'​

   published at 11:01​

   

   
   Former Labour MP Harriet Harman has praised the Supreme Court for "correctly" interpreting the Equality Act in today's judgement.
   
   "Single sex spaces for women are important & can exclude trans women but only where necessary", she writes in a social media post.
   
   "The Act, & ruling, protects rights of women while also respecting the rights of trans women."
   
   Harman, who now chairs a women's rights group, was involved in drafting the Equality Act, and she says today's ruling gives "effect to our intention when drafting it".​

Mealy mouthed response from Harman. When is exclusion of trans women “necessary”?

 

[The perfect fumble]

2. Trans women are psychologically female.

Lord have mercy on your soul.

Today is not the day for this.

 

[blueinsa]

Still waiting for an answer to this.

If you agree with the ruling @blueinsa and @The perfect fumble then please, I really want to know, what are transgender women supposed to do now they (presumably) can't use women's toilets, can't use women's changing rooms, and can't play sports with other women?

I know, I know, "use men's toilets", etc. But do you think we become a safer, less violent nation with transgender women in men's spaces? If it's true after all that men are inherently the more violent sex, do you not think that hate crimes against transgender women are going to spike once they're in a room of men on their own?

Beyond all the calls for "common sense" and "there are two genders and that's it," I've not heard from one gender critical person what transgender women are supposed to do when they're confronted with the possibility of being violently assaulted once they start rocking up in men's changing rooms and toilets?

It’s not about toilets for me, it’s about those who felt they could dictate to women what a woman is, completely over riding their feelings and opinions.

This ruling makes it clear that biological sex defines a women whilst making it clear Trans people are protected but not at the expense of biological women which is what some wanted sadly.