UK supreme court ruling on legal definition of a woman

[youngbob]

He looks more like a woman than most trans women

Normally I'd come down hard on a post like this but I think you've neatly summed it all up in 10 words.

This thread is eight pages long and I've still had absolutely nobody offer up a practical solution for transgender women that actually works and doesn't require every business in the country re-routing their plumbing, doesn't put trans women in danger from violent bigoted men, and doesn't involve places like the Arndale undergoing major bathroom renovations at great public cost.

See, the thing is, to most eyes, trans women look ugly, confusing, and strange. This is the point I've been trying to get at the entire time - nobody who identifies as gender critical is offering up practical solutions for trans women because I don't believe anybody who's gender critical wants to work that out. They just want trans women gone because, when you really get down to it, they think they look ugly, confusing, and strange.

Beyond the literal implications of the supreme court's ruling from this morning, what I find so dispiriting about the entire trans debate is that - as much as I like to believe in the safety of community and the power of ordinary people - the lack of curiosity and empathy remaining in the average person's soul is alarming. Now the ruling has been made, where are the gender critical people offering up solutions to the trans women they apparently don't hate?

If it's just about protecting women's spaces - great! You've won! But... now what? Where do all those trans women go? You've got to give them somewhere else to go.

When you travel to the very root of gender critical ideology it becomes more than just being about 'protecting women's spaces'. It's ultimately an angry group of people rejecting another group that they deem to be foreign, on the grounds that they are unusual and "abnormal". They don't understand it so it must be a danger, and therefore it must be disposed of. And that's something that's mirrored everywhere now, as though the philosophy of "live and let live" has fallen out of everyone's heads.

In the words of Christine McPherson.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

if it was just about bogs then its easily broken down like that but this goes way, way beyond toilet. The easily outraged get whipped up by those who's agenda is to distract people from the real issues in their lives. Neighbour on one side of you who has 4 kids dumped by her husband and having to use food banks - neighbour other side of you worried sick about their up coming PIP claim? Then get JK Rowling to get you angry about 1% of the population and all the world's ills magically disappear ...........

This all day. This thread is full of the same right wing cunts who love Boris and defend trump. It’s all about division.

Both absolutely correct, but I find the 'pro' trans side of the argument often just as disingenuous - very often not actually trans folk making the point but others with their own wide agendas weaponising the trans issues to their own ends.
The argument always seems to be disproportionate to the actual problem.

 

[Pedestrian]

as people consider the impacts of the ruling those divisionists will already be casting the net looking for the next thing to use. TBH I am amazed we haven't had Badenoch and Braverman giving their approval to the whole thing

They’re busy dancing on graves and burning books.

 

[Blue and true]

Correct decision by the Supreme Court. Good on them.

 

[Pedestrian]

No one unless he wants to go for a piss/dump in the ladies, then the ladies get upset apparently

Nah. It’s mostly right wing blokes that are up in arms. Look at this thread. It’s a nothing topic that’s used to deflect. Are you bothered if bill in his dress goes in the ladies and shits in a private cubicle?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Nah. It’s mostly right wing blokes that are up in arms. Look at this thread. It’s a nothing topic that’s used to deflect. Are you bothered if bill in his dress goes in the ladies and shits in a private cubicle?

Not true apparently. We recently had a meeting where I work about making all the toilets gender neutral. Only objections came from female colleagues - nothing to do with trans, they just think bloke do bigger, smellier shits and have sweaty arses.

 

[Kazzydeyna]

It’s actually very simple this whole debate.
If you have a beard, a penis, and a frankly weird predilection for being allowed to urinate in the same space as young girls, use the toilets with a picture of a gent on the door.

Leave my daughter’s and granddaughter’s private spaces alone please.

 

[KS55]

Normally I'd come down hard on a post like this but I think you've neatly summed it all up in 10 words.

This thread is eight pages long and I've still had absolutely nobody offer up a practical solution for transgender women that actually works and doesn't require every business in the country re-routing their plumbing, doesn't put trans women in danger from violent bigoted men, and doesn't involve places like the Arndale undergoing major bathroom renovations at great public cost.

See, the thing is, to most eyes, trans women look ugly, confusing, and strange. This is the point I've been trying to get at the entire time - nobody who identifies as gender critical is offering up practical solutions for trans women because I don't believe anybody who's gender critical wants to work that out. They just want trans women gone because, when you really get down to it, they think they look ugly, confusing, and strange.

Beyond the literal implications of the supreme court's ruling from this morning, what I find so dispiriting about the entire trans debate is that - as much as I like to believe in the safety of community and the power of ordinary people - the lack of curiosity and empathy remaining in the average person's soul is alarming. Now the ruling has been made, where are the gender critical people offering up solutions to the trans women they apparently don't hate?

If it's just about protecting women's spaces - great! You've won! But... now what? Where do all those trans women go? You've got to give them somewhere else to go.

When you travel to the very root of gender critical ideology it becomes more than just being about 'protecting women's spaces'. It's ultimately an angry group of people rejecting another group that they deem to be foreign, on the grounds that they are unusual and "abnormal". They don't understand it so it must be a danger, and therefore it must be disposed of. And that's something that's mirrored everywhere now, as though the philosophy of "live and let live" has fallen out of everyone's heads.

In the words of Christine McPherson.

View attachment 153109

There is no practical solution that is cost free. I can see why you want a practical solution but not why it has to be cost free. Are you worried that the cost gives people an excuse to do nowt?

 

[I'm With Stupid]

Trans women used women's bathrooms without issue my whole life (in fact, it was part of the requirements for being allowed to legally transition), yet suddenly it became an issue as soon as the gay marriage argument was won. What a coincidence.

I get that there are legitimate questions about fairness and safety in elite sport and issues about what is acceptable when it comes to under-18s. I also get that in particularly sensitive places like rape crisis centres, having someone who looks male could be a problem (although the fact that a trans-woman would need a rape crisis centre tells a story). But I can't help but think all of this is being whipped up for reasons other than genuine concern for women. The numbers of people who suddenly intensely care about women's sport, for example, is hilarious.

 

[KS55]

Nah. It’s mostly right wing blokes that are up in arms. Look at this thread. It’s a nothing topic that’s used to deflect. Are you bothered if bill in his dress goes in the ladies and shits in a private cubicle?

Those celebrating in court were almost all women.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Normally I'd come down hard on a post like this but I think you've neatly summed it all up in 10 words.

This thread is eight pages long and I've still had absolutely nobody offer up a practical solution for transgender women that actually works and doesn't require every business in the country re-routing their plumbing, doesn't put trans women in danger from violent bigoted men, and doesn't involve places like the Arndale undergoing major bathroom renovations at great public cost.

See, the thing is, to most eyes, trans women look ugly, confusing, and strange. This is the point I've been trying to get at the entire time - nobody who identifies as gender critical is offering up practical solutions for trans women because I don't believe anybody who's gender critical wants to work that out. They just want trans women gone because, when you really get down to it, they think they look ugly, confusing, and strange.

Beyond the literal implications of the supreme court's ruling from this morning, what I find so dispiriting about the entire trans debate is that - as much as I like to believe in the safety of community and the power of ordinary people - the lack of curiosity and empathy remaining in the average person's soul is alarming. Now the ruling has been made, where are the gender critical people offering up solutions to the trans women they apparently don't hate?

If it's just about protecting women's spaces - great! You've won! But... now what? Where do all those trans women go? You've got to give them somewhere else to go.

When you travel to the very root of gender critical ideology it becomes more than just being about 'protecting women's spaces'. It's ultimately an angry group of people rejecting another group that they deem to be foreign, on the grounds that they are unusual and "abnormal". They don't understand it so it must be a danger, and therefore it must be disposed of. And that's something that's mirrored everywhere now, as though the philosophy of "live and let live" has fallen out of everyone's heads.

In the words of Christine McPherson.

View attachment 153109

The cost of replumbing or remodeling toilets is probably something we just have to accept. I'm sure the same financial argument were made against disabled toilets a few decades ago.
The fact is that women don't want to sacrifice their right to not share ablution space with biological men. We have to respect that, and we also can't be exclusionary to trans folk. So, stupid as it all seems to most folk well have to go down the gender neutral toilets route. We've been doing it on planes for years and everyone seems ok with that.

 

[bluechippie]

My local pub has two gender neutral cubicles, the landlord just asks that blokes don't piss on the seats and the ladies don't shit on the floor!

 

[idahoblues]

They should say 'right, while all the other kids are off to Blackpool for a day trip, you two can stay here in cages' see how long they identify as cats then.
FFS. What are their parents and the fucking school thinking, pandering to them?!?

Maybe they should have a scratch box

 

[The perfect fumble]

Normally I'd come down hard on a post like this but I think you've neatly summed it all up in 10 words.

This thread is eight pages long and I've still had absolutely nobody offer up a practical solution for transgender women that actually works and doesn't require every business in the country re-routing their plumbing, doesn't put trans women in danger from violent bigoted men, and doesn't involve places like the Arndale undergoing major bathroom renovations at great public cost.

See, the thing is, to most eyes, trans women look ugly, confusing, and strange. This is the point I've been trying to get at the entire time - nobody who identifies as gender critical is offering up practical solutions for trans women because I don't believe anybody who's gender critical wants to work that out. They just want trans women gone because, when you really get down to it, they think they look ugly, confusing, and strange.

Beyond the literal implications of the supreme court's ruling from this morning, what I find so dispiriting about the entire trans debate is that - as much as I like to believe in the safety of community and the power of ordinary people - the lack of curiosity and empathy remaining in the average person's soul is alarming. Now the ruling has been made, where are the gender critical people offering up solutions to the trans women they apparently don't hate?

If it's just about protecting women's spaces - great! You've won! But... now what? Where do all those trans women go? You've got to give them somewhere else to go.

When you travel to the very root of gender critical ideology it becomes more than just being about 'protecting women's spaces'. It's ultimately an angry group of people rejecting another group that they deem to be foreign, on the grounds that they are unusual and "abnormal". They don't understand it so it must be a danger, and therefore it must be disposed of. And that's something that's mirrored everywhere now, as though the philosophy of "live and let live" has fallen out of everyone's heads.

In the words of Christine McPherson.

View attachment 153109

"When you travel to the very root of gender critical ideology it becomes more than just being about 'protecting women's spaces'. It's ultimately an angry group of people rejecting another group that they deem to be foreign"

And there you have it. The same tired lie, over and over again.

"If it's just about protecting women's spaces - great! You've won! But... now what? Where do all those trans women go? You've got to give them somewhere else to go."

Tell me, where do you think they want to go?

 

[meltonblue]

There seems to be a lot of unsavoury commentary about that’s forgetting gender reassignment is still a protected characteristic too.

It’s possible to be happy for biological women and still have empathy for trans people too.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Maybe we should have toilets for people who are a bit mental, then trans and women could both use them

 

[Pedestrian]

Not true apparently. We recently had a meeting where I work about making all the toilets gender neutral. Only objections came from female colleagues - nothing to do with trans, they just think bloke do bigger, smellier shits and have sweaty arses.

That weekly job club you attend to get your dole is not work fella. It’s me giving you money so you can act the perpetual **** on bluemoon.

 

[The perfect fumble]

The cost of replumbing or remodeling toilets is probably something we just have to accept. I'm sure the same financial argument were made against disabled toilets a few decades ago.
The fact is that women don't want to sacrifice their right to not share ablution space with biological men. We have to respect that, and we also can't be exclusionary to trans folk. So, stupid as it all seems to most folk well have to go down the gender neutral toilets route. We've been doing it on planes for years and everyone seems ok with that.

This toilet fixation is driving me round the U bend, last I recall plane toilets were one at a time, please no mile high club jokes.

 

[The Colonel]

if it was just about bogs then its easily broken down like that but this goes way, way beyond toilet. The easily outraged get whipped up by those who's agenda is to distract people from the real issues in their lives. Neighbour on one side of you who has 4 kids dumped by her husband and having to use food banks - neighbour other side of you worried sick about their up coming PIP claim? Then get JK Rowling to get you angry about 1% of the population and all the world's ills magically disappear ...........

This is exactly what I say to friends who get frothy mouthed about trans in sports or immigrants. Yes there is something to address here but I then ask them how many times in your day to day lives do these things directly affect them. Silence.
It’s just a tool of the populist politician. It works on those whose minds just blow in the wind.

 

[youngbob]

"When you travel to the very root of gender critical ideology it becomes more than just being about 'protecting women's spaces'. It's ultimately an angry group of people rejecting another group that they deem to be foreign"

And there you have it. The same tired lie, over and over again.

"If it's just about protecting women's spaces - great! You've won! But... now what? Where do all those trans women go? You've got to give them somewhere else to go."

Tell me, where do you think they want to go?

I think trans people just want to go for a wee without being harassed, followed, or beaten up, to be honest. The same as every bugger else - you and me included.

I've repeatedly asked you in this thread if you have any practical solutions for what happens now - beyond "trans women should just use men's toilets". I've offered to listen and try to understand where you're coming from. And yet, the first post of mine you respond to, on page 10, is one where you've spotted something that clashes with your ideology and you've fixated entirely on that part of my post. This is what I mean when I say that the gender critical ideology has reached a dark place - one that was probably interested in protecting women's single-sex spaces once upon a time but has now mutated into something quite hateful.

I don't get the feeling from your posts that you're particularly sympathetic to the trans cause, or that you understand their arguments but just don't agree. You've made numerous jokes about the appearance of trans women, you've laughed along at other jibes, and smugly quoted people on the victorious side of the verdict. Like For Women Scotland are your favourite football team and trans rights activists are United or something. Unfortunately you reflect a lot of my experiences with gender critical people. Not all of them, but a lot of them. Sadly, I don't think gender critical people will stop here - I think the next step is to go after the protections afforded to trans people in the Equality Act and beyond.

But by the time anyone realises that it was never just about protecting women's single-sex spaces, and more about pushing transgender people into the furthest margins possible, it'll be too late. I think, like a lot of culture war stuff on social media, whatever original or well-meaning arguments either side might have were lost in the noise. And this is where we end up. I have gender critical people in my family circle and I have transgender friends - it requires effort, but I can see through the dissonance. Both issues have been very close to my heart for a long time, which is why it bothers me so much that any discussion that could have been had on this has been lost to hate.

And I only really see hate coming from one side these days. The other side just has to listen to a "debate" over their existence and take court defeats on the chin.