UK supreme court ruling on legal definition of a woman

[Rory Bluelow]

I referred to my daughters school earlier and the furies. She also has a lad who identifies as a girl and joins in their PE sessions. He gets changed with them and as she is hitting puberty she isnt comfortable with it at all

Bloody hell. That’s just plain wrong !

 

[youngbob]

I am transgender. I first realised that something was ‘wrong’ when I was 6 or 7. But I hid it from everyone because I believed that even my close family would reject me if they found out.


I struggled with it my entire life. I would have given anything not to be this way. I hated and despised myself all my life.
I could not have an intimate relationship with anyone because I could never be myself with another person. I never had real friends because my life was a lie, I was not the person they thought I was.

Transitioning and living as a woman was my worst nightmare. It would be the end of life as I knew it. I was convinced I would lose my family and what little friendship I had with people.

Unfortunately, you can only fight it for so long before it becomes impossible to go on. I went ahead and made the change. Suicide was a serious option because the alternative was so terrifying. I did not think I would have the strength to tell everyone the truth about myself and start living as a woman. I found the courage to do it by telling myself that I could always kill myself if it became too terrible. There were many times in the first couple of years that I almost reached that point. The three people that carried me through were all women. I would not be here today without their love and support. None of them were family members although my family were generally supportive.

I would never do anything to make women uncomfortable or afraid. I believe that is true of the vast majority of transwomen.

The ruling today scares me. I had genital surgery nine years ago. I do not have male genitalia. I can be raped in the same way that a biological woman can be raped yet I may find myself having to share male facilities. I undertand the anxiety that having someone who was born male in a female space can cause. I am terrified of being the female in an all male space.

Trans people are not monsters. We did not arrive from space in the last few years, we just became more visible. Trans people have always been here and always will be no matter how many laws are passed against us. We have no choice. We are what we are.

I am not a sexual predator or rapist. I am just another human being like all of you. I want to live my life in peace. I deserve to do that just as much as each of you do.

What a brave post.

And I imagine, for some in this thread, it's probably the first time they've ever come into proper contact with a trans person on this issue, admittedly only via the internet. Which is why the thread has gone particularly quiet since you posted it. I think what a lot of people forget (not helped by social media) is that when we're online discussing and debating and arguing over these things, there are actual, real people being affected by laws getting passed and legislature being changed. It's far easier to dismiss the other side as an entire group instead of recognising them all as individuals with the same wants and needs as everyone else.

The characterisation of trans people from the gender critical posters in this thread confirms to me that very few of them have ever spoken with, listened to, or made friends with a trans person. There seems to be this idea prevalent that trans people are proud of their bodies and want to show them off as much as possible - or, as one person suggested, in a changing room full of teenage girls. It breaks my heart to say this but every trans person I know is ashamed of their body, frightened of their own voice being heard, and deeply anxious. The thought of even going into a changing room, never mind getting undressed in one, feels impossible to them.

This is what I don't understand. Sure, there are predators out there who happen to be trans (or are, at the very least, just very mentally confused as a person) but there are predators everywhere and in every social group. And I don't remember the last time a predator didn't carry out a sex attack in a changing room because a little sign on the door said he couldn't go in. I've asked time and time again in this thread what the practical solution is for people like you, given that you can be attacked by a man in the same way as every other woman, but I've had a miniscule amount of responses from people who've actually been willing to meet me halfway.

I wish you luck on your journey. As you say, organisations like For Women Scotland might want trans people to disappear, but trans people keep surviving.

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

I applaud the decision but I also think it’s been celebrated by many because quite frankly many people are sick to death of all this stuff, you can see why Trump is been lauded in America with his stance on DEI and trans stuff. I think many people have had enough of been told how to think, yes we can all be tolerant and just nice humans but the constant bombardment of it all you eventually get push back. Looking over your shoulder in case you say something in jest that could “offend” someone, the quotas and targets to employ certain demographics instead of the best person for the job. It’s why you are seeing a rise of the far right, the left have pissed people off enough they’ve rebelled. Look at Starmer he says there are certain instances where a man can be a woman, then this ruling happens and he agrees with the court!
The amount of time and money spent would be better used elsewhere in this country. As for the bathroom situation, imagine trying to do gender neutral bogs at City!

Same thoughts here. People are being told what to think by a minority. Whether they are right or wrong doesn't matter, its this creeping feeling that people have no control over things that affect us massively. Not even a say in them.

The link between that and people who vote for a Trump (I think) is far greater than just wanting mexican immigration stopped or fear of China. And of course the right wing exploit that.

 

[bluethrunthru]

My Lad is gay. He is hoping to marry his partner next year. Through them my wife and I have come across / interacted with loads of gay and trans folk in recent years. In almost all cases you'd find it hard to know or indeed never know without discussions with them. Gay and trans folk live in our society and have done presumably forever and without openly declaring their situation most of society never know. The most upsetting conversations I have had is when you meet someone gay or trans who are ostracised by parents / family as a result of bigotry based in religion or politics. Its facing up to your situation and making it known to the world only to have your immediate support network turn their back on you because of what they are told by their religion or some politician.

 

[halfcenturyup]

Same thoughts here. People are being told what to think by a minority. Whether they are right or wrong doesn't matter, its this creeping feeling that people have no control over things that affect us massively. Not even a say in them.

The link between that and people who vote for a Trump (I think) is far greater than just wanting mexican immigration stopped or fear of China. And of course the right wing exploit that.

Of course it is, and it's a point I keep trying to make in the US threads but it doesn't get any traction because people are still clinging on to their fact that a majority of the US electorate are stupid rather then accepting any blame for a catastrophic failure of the left over years to temper policies for which the electorate aren't ready yet. These issues being some of them.

 

[Cassandra]

It may have been covered elsewhere but I find the phrase 'biological woman' or 'biological sex' a bit vague. I can see two different views on what it means. The most common interpretation seems to be 'female by birth' but I can equally see a definition of 'physically female' the latter seems more relevant to me, In other words if someone has had genital reconstruction surgery then I'm prepared to accept them as a woman. For as long as they retain male genitalia then they can dress, regard themselves as a woman and be addressed as a woman, but when it comes to public loos and changing rooms etc. they go along with others with the same physical genitalia.

 

[inbetween]

My Lad is gay. He is hoping to marry his partner next year. Through them my wife and I have come across / interacted with loads of gay and trans folk in recent years. In almost all cases you'd find it hard to know or indeed never know without discussions with them. Gay and trans folk live in our society and have done presumably forever and without openly declaring their situation most of society never know. The most upsetting conversations I have had is when you meet someone gay or trans who are ostracised by parents / family as a result of bigotry based in religion or politics. Its facing up to your situation and making it known to the world only to have your immediate support network turn their back on you because of what they are told by their religion or some politician.

My brother is gay and I've had the same experience of people he's met. Him coming out to our dad was difficult and it was okay but I don't think our dad was never truly okay about it. It changed my brothers life to move into the middle of Manchester versus staying out here in the sticks where there isn't exactly a gay community. He mixes with alsorts of people and I have been to pride with him, their community is great.

The ironic thing is that this attracts considerable debate and yet 99.9% are not really qualified to talk about it. This is why the politics of it are toxic, everyone has an opinion but virtually none of them know anything about it. Personally as a heterosexual man I don't think I'm qualified to really pass judgement. All I know is that there is no easy solution and I can see both sides so the only solution surely sits somewhere in the middle.

The only point I really do agree with is on participation in sport but that's because there is a fairness issue but also a serious safety issue too. Biological sex should be protected there because it has to be. Should biological men be competing in the womens boxing for example? We know for a fact that this is just outright dangerous.

 

[DiscoSteve]

I don't recall ever going into a building where there were men's toilets, women's toilets, and then a third toilet block especially for "trans people". For transgender women, the alternative to using women's toilets is using men's toilets (or, in a pinch disabled toilets). Is the world likely to be a safer place with transgender women using men's toilets, using men's changing rooms, or playing sports with men? You can see why someone would be concerned about a potential increase in hate crimes.

never saw them before either, until Tuesday/Wednesday this week - this was in a UK Public Sector Organisaion building - and the way they did it was to combine the 'accessible toilet' option with (don't want to get the words wrong here) with one for people who don't comfortabley fit into the male/female categories - so these two signs were on the wall next to each other - I thought that was a pragmatic solution to the issue.

 

[bluethrunthru]

never saw them before either, until Tuesday/Wednesday this week - this was in a UK Public Sector Organisaion building - and the way they did it was to combine the 'accessible toilet' option with (don't want to get the words wrong here) with one for people who don't comfortabley fit into the male/female categories - so these two signs were on the wall next to each other - I thought that was a pragmatic solution to the issue.

I remember when it was doing the rounds last year and Nick Ferrari had an epic rant about unisex toilets in work spaces. It was later pointed out on Twitter that about 20 paces from the desk where he sat were the unisex toilets at Global that Ferrari used without complaint daily

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

Of course it is, and it's a point I keep trying to make in the US threads but it doesn't get any traction because people are still clinging on to their fact that a majority of the US electorate are stupid rather then accepting any blame for a catastrophic failure of the left over years to temper policies for which the electorate aren't ready yet. These issues being some of them.

It's almost as if people's opinions are being ignored.

I said the same myself over immigrating. It's clear people are scared, rightly or wrongly, and their only salvation has been right wing groups because the left or centrist political groups only offered more of the same thing that scares people.

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

never saw them before either, until Tuesday/Wednesday this week - this was in a UK Public Sector Organisaion building - and the way they did it was to combine the 'accessible toilet' option with (don't want to get the words wrong here) with one for people who don't comfortabley fit into the male/female categories - so these two signs were on the wall next to each other - I thought that was a pragmatic solution to the issue.

Same here. It's an interim maybe measure but it works already.

 

[Grassland Blue]

As someone on the opposite side of this, I really just want to know... What are transgender women expected to do now? I hear so much from gender critical people that trans women shouldn't be allowed in women's single sex spaces. Okay, fine. But... where are they supposed to go? The ruling has been made so I want answers now.

The obvious response is "the correct dressing rooms/toilets", etc.

But if the argument from gender critical people is that men are inherently violent creatures who can't be controlled, then how does the world become a safer place by telling (as gender critical people see it) effeminate men to go into a men's changing room? Surely that just makes that person a target for violence from their own sex?

I really am willing to listen because I feel like I've never had an answer, and the lack of answers just makes me think that the end goal among gender critical types is for transgender women to not exist at all.

You could wear a burkah......

 

[It could have been 10]

The whole debate about does a woman have a penis bores me absolutely shitless. I couldn't care less.

 

[Nickyweaves]

I didn’t plan to do a follow up post. The first one was difficult enough.

I posted my personal experience of being trans to try and explain what it feels like to those who have never knowingly encountered a trans person. I say knowingly because we walk among you and we are not all hairy men in a dress. Some of you may have even sat next to me at the Etihad.

I think my experience is fairly typical of most trans people. I wanted to put a human ‘face’ on the term transwomen.

I know I am really shouting into the gale but I felt it had to be said.

I really just wanted to thank everyone who has given a like to my original post and to those who have replied in their own posts.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Being trans these days can feel very lonely but each of you have made it just a little bit easier.

 

[The perfect fumble]

You’re right that society, and private businesses, have not caught up to the very recent surge in the public needs of the trans community. Hopefully, things will improve.

However, I hope that you can see that the whole topic has become akin to the old chestnut

“How many (fill in the blank) does it take to screw in a lightbulb?”

“One! They just hold the lightbulb in place and the whole world revolves around them!”

You see, the “problem” has been created by a very distinct, albeit publicly vocal, minority, who is now expecting to receive special treatment for their situation.

Society takes time.

Gender-neutral bathrooms are a welcome change, but they’re expensive in some locations that might need multiple bathrooms.

As for other situations, until society catches up, I would politely suggest that it is incumbent on the trans community to find their solutions to the problems they face, knowing that the “in yer face!” approach isn’t a winning strategy.

I do have sympathy for anyone who feels trapped inside the wrong body, or an intersex individual who has to make a choice and then be castigated for it, but these are issues for such a small sliver of society that we should understand it will take time for many to come around to a suitable accommodation.

That said, we all know that protection of the meek, weak, and youngest & most vulnerable amongst us is of paramount importance. I feel like that imperative has driven the majority view, with the very vocal and forceful desire of some in the trans community has hurt their cause, esp in the area of those born as a biological male now competing in female sports, even though their testosterone-estrogen levels meet a certain standard.

We ALL know that biological males are, in an overwhelming proportion, significantly stronger than biological females. That, for want of a better word, corrupts the sporting chance. That is where many people find their views on the matter and the rest, to them is either political or performative nonsense.

Let’s hope society catches up to itself and we can all coexist in peace. For that, though, we have to understand each of our respective places within society and not seek special favor or unwarranted acceptance, because it is not society that has suddenly created this change, even though it may have been present for a very long time, albeit mostly hidden.

I'm thinking of offering my bespoke "Social, Emotional Learning" courses to Ric so that Bluemoon can "catch Up"

My values inform everything I do, if he doesn't like them I have others...

He can choose from....

1. Decolonise your Business
2. Indigenous Ways of Knowing.
3. My lived Experience.
4. Bring Your Whole Self to Work

Have you ever heard of the "Phallic Drift"? It's fascinating stuff....

But not every day....

Oh, by the way, go back 100 years or so and you'll find society was doing a bit of "catch up", only it was eugenics that was in vogue, Woodrow Wilson was a big fan, eugenics was the inexorable march of progress for humanity back then, but we now know there was nothing inexorable about it. if society needs to "catch up" with anything, it means someone of something is driving it in a direction it doesn't necessarily want to go, and changing tack from hard sell to softly softly might not be the solution, because, and this might come as a shock, there's nothing inexorable about gender ideology either.

Maybe, just maybe, on the odd occasion, society wakes up and realises they're being sold a bag of shite.

And here in the UK yesterday was a wake up call.

 

[halfcenturyup]

I'm thinking of offering my bespoke "Social, Emotional Learning"courses to Ric so that Bluemoon can "catch Up"

My values inform everything I do, if he doesn't like them I have others...

He can choose from....

1. Decolonise your Business
2. Indigenous Ways of Knowing.
3. My lived Experience.
4. Bring Your Whole Self to Work

Have you ever heard of the "Phallic Drift"? It's fascinating stuff....

But not every day....

Oh, by the way, go back 100 years or so and you'll find society was doing a bit of "catch up", only it was eugenics that was in vogue, Woodrow Wilson was a big fan, eugenics was the inexorable march of progress for humanity back then, but we now know there was nothing inexorable about it. if society needs to "catch up" with anything, it means someone of something is driving it in a direction it doesn't necessarily want to go, and changing tack from hard sell to softly softly might not be the solution, because, and this might come as a shock, there's nothing inexorable about gender ideology either.

Maybe, just maybe, on the odd occasion, society wakes up and realises they're being sold a bag of shite.

And here in the UK yesterday was a wake up call.

That headline reminded me of this:

Blackadder: I seek information about a Wise Woman.
Young Crone: The Wise Woman? The Wise Woman?!
Blackadder: Yes. The Wise Woman.
Young Crone: Two things, my Lord, must ye know of the Wise Woman. First... she is a woman! And second... she is...
Blackadder: Wise?
Young Crone: You do know her, then?

 

[blueinsa]

You have my full love and support.

Please always know that not everyone is against you. It's unfortunate in life that the negative voices are often the loudest.

Nobody is against anyone who is Transgender I’d hope but the law has been clarified and that clarification ensures that the rights of women as defined by biology and law are not over ridden at the expense of Transgender individuals.

Live and let live applies to everyone yes?

 

[HelloCity]

Nobody is against anyone who is Transgender I’d hope but the law has been clarified and that clarification ensures that the rights of women as defined by biology and law are not over ridden at the expense of Transgender individuals.

Live and let live applies to everyone yes?

Jesus.

I'm giving someone emotional support and you feel the need to jump in like that?

It's not even relevant to what I'm saying and commenting 'Nobody is against anyone who is Transgender' is ridiculous as I've seen some of the abuse trans people get first hand.

 

[bluethrunthru]

I really cannot imagine how she thinks this does her and her image any favours

 

[HelloCity]

One thing I would comment on the supreme court decision is this...

These are the sexes and ages of the members of the supreme court:

Male, 68
Male, 71
Male, 73
Male, 70
Male, 63
Male, 67
Male, 67
Male, 68
Male, 70
Male, 73
Female, 65
Female, 61

You've basically got a bunch of OAP's (or near), mostly men, deciding on a subject like this. It feels to me that you'd need this decided by a more diverse line up of ages and sexes.