Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

[SWP's back]

people's obsessions with middle eastern regimes are weird. Yes they are led by religious zealots who are duplicitous and seem to care little about their own peoples lot. But try looking closer to home. The US is run by religious zealots and the cuts planned by the current regime to things like medicaid and veterans support is that any different? Look here - 14 years of austerity - the Govts actions in Covid are being exposed in an enquiry - Grenfell seems to have changed nothing and the current Govts approach to welfare provision - have they ever had our best interests in mind?

Idiotic to compare the Iranian regime and fucking austerity and a party at No.10 during Covid.

 

[Vic]

it’s predicated on religion but the state of Israel (which is what we are talking about) was created after WW2 for political reasons, not religious ones. Because Jewish people had been persecuted in Europe for centuries, ending in the holocaust, it was felt that this sustained wrong had to be made right. Unfortunately the wider implications of this weren’t fully thought through. And here we are. A fucking mess.

Israel came about because of a political decision. And that is why I view Zionism as a creature of politics. Understand that everyone isn’t going to agree with that. It’s a subjective thing, I guess.

And genuinely happy to hear any counter arguments. Except from @Vic

Fancy not wanting to hear from someone with the best counter arguments.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Fancy not wanting to hear from someone with the best counter arguments.

No, it’s because you’re a tedious ****.

 

[Resurrection Joe...]

A bit of both, is the way I see it. You can call all of it political if you so choose, but when political decisions are based on biblical teachings whether you’re Christian or Jewish, I think the lines are already blurred.
We are talking Zionism here. It is steeped in 3000+ years of religious dogma.

Even go back to the Balfour declaration of 1917. Balfour has been accused by some of being a Christian Evangelist himself. I would say no, not in the traditional sense but he was a Christian Zionist who incidentally issued the 1905 Alien Act which stopped Eastern Europeans (Jewish) who were suffering increasing persecution from coming to Britain.

He didn’t want them coming to the UK. He supported sending them to Palestine to give them a homeland there. Someone else’s problem?

It’s always been political but Zionism is religious.

Next door to the DBA on Cheetham Hill Rd...where the state of Israel began...supposedly.

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

There really are some right twats supporting the Israelis and justifying what they are doing. People who pretend they care. LOL what a joke.

 

[robbieh]

Someone did suggest 2 separate threads and it makes sense.

Firstly following Israel's attack on Iran they are now at war, as unlike in Gaza, the Iranians have the means to respond.

Secondly while this war captures the interest of the belligerents and the wider world, Israel is quietly getting on with the slaughter in Gaza.

 

[Bluemoon_420]

Why the deflection? If this conflict results in the Persians being able to lead normal lives that's a good thing. You do realise that the majority of the Arab world detests the Palestinians and want nothing to do with them, yet here you are.

Know many Arabs do you or have evidence to back up that claim?

Possibly one of the most ignorant posts I’ve had the displeasure of reading on this thread and there’s been a fair few of them from the brainwashed hasbara trolls.

 

[abu13]

There really are some right twats supporting the Israelis and justifying what they are doing. People who pretend they care. LOL what a joke.

To be fair, like most things there are twats on both sides. what pisses me off are the people who take a side without seeking to understand the background of the issue.

 

[remember arthur mann]

It's so much as understanding the background of the issue BUT the slaughter of innocents. That's what I understand.

 

[inbetween]

If after WW1 the British had acted more sensibly and created a one state solution where Moslem, Jew and Arab lived under equal rights in something approaching the setup in Lebanon, do you really think the Middle East would have been the site of so much violence?
Yes the Brits and US would have invaded the area from time to time, after all there's oil in them there hills.
But it was the establishment of a foreign ultra aggressive, heavily armed colony in the area that has led to the unprecedented level of instability.

Yes I agree that the creation of Israel is problematic but that's a problem for 70+ years ago. What is the solution today? We can say that Israel should give back the lands that it took but where would you draw those lines?

If Israel declared a ceasefire and dismantled the settlements then do you honestly believe that Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas and everybody else involved would accept that and there would be peace? Of course not because these fundamentally do not believe that Israel should exist, it goes beyond the Palestinian issue.

This is why a two state solution is just a complete nonsense, neither side wants it. The Palestinians as a people may accept it but the Palestinians are currently led and organised politically by terrorists supported by the likes of Iran. Would you start a two-state solution negotiation by bringing Hamas and Iran to the table? That would be stupid but that's the reality.

Basically it's a bloody mess but let's not pretend that the only major war and peace issue in the Middle East is Israel, if you think that then your Google must be broken. Every single country east of Israel has been fighting some form of war or just plain fighting each other for centuries.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Yes I agree that the creation of Israel is problematic but that's a problem for 70+ years ago. What is the solution today? We can say that Israel should give back the lands that it took but where would you draw those lines?

If Israel declared a ceasefire and dismantled the settlements then do you honestly believe that Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas and everybody else involved would accept that and there would be peace? Of course not because these fundamentally do not believe that Israel should exist, it goes beyond the Palestinian issue.

This is why a two state solution is just a complete nonsense, neither side wants it. The Palestinians as a people may accept it but the Palestinians are currently led and organised politically by terrorists supported by the likes of Iran. Would you start a two-state solution negotiation by bringing Hamas and Iran to the table? That would be stupid but that's the reality.

Basically it's a bloody mess but let's not pretend that the only major war and peace issue in the Middle East is Israel, if you think that then your Google must be broken. Every single country east of Israel has been fighting some form of war or just plain fighting each other for centuries.

I think it’s gone way past that now, with what Netanyahu has embarked on. You’re perhaps right, but don’t just lump it on the Arab fundamentalists.
In 1994 Arafat and Rabin negotiated a two state solution and received the Nobel peace prize for the Oslo Accord.
Rabin was assassinated by an ultra nationalist student who opposed this.

There’s nut jobs on both sides, but the current Israeli government for various reasons have no intention of listening to reason. Conflict is opportunity for Netanyahu and always was.

The thing is, the only way to have a peaceful solution is to find a way to get the very people you describe to talk instead of shoot.

Thank Christ or Allah or whoever you like that the likes of John Hume and Mo Mowlam didn’t have the same attitude up North in the 1980-90s

 

[roman totale]

View attachment 160215
Next door to the DBA on Cheetham Hill Rd...where the state of Israel began...supposedly.

I knew the Balfour Declaration was a product of Manchester. I didn’t know it was next-door to Joey Holts though. Is it too late to have the relevant parties get together at the Derby Brewery and find an amenable way forward over a few pints of mild and a packet of Jake’s Pub Crisps?

 

[Resurrection Joe...]

I knew the Balfour Declaration was a product of Manchester. I didn’t know it was next-door to Joey Holts though. Is it too late to have the relevant parties get together at the Derby Brewery and find an amenable way forward over a few pints of mild and a packet of Jake’s Pub Crisps?

its never too late.....plus theres a knocking shop round the back which may further help alleviate tensions.

 

[tweety]

Know many Arabs do you or have evidence to back up that claim?

Possibly one of the most ignorant posts I’ve had the displeasure of reading on this thread and there’s been a fair few of them from the brainwashed hasbara trolls.

I know quite a few Arabs, however I don't know any Israelis or Jews. I do know how some of them feel regarding the Palestinians and it certainly isn't what you think. You really should stop getting all of your information from The Guardian, it's brainwashed you and the other Israeli/Jew hating trolls on here.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I knew the Balfour Declaration was a product of Manchester. I didn’t know it was next-door to Joey Holts though. Is it too late to have the relevant parties get together at the Derby Brewery and find an amenable way forward over a few pints of mild and a packet of Jake’s Pub Crisps?

He was a patron of Manchester City FC

 

[bluethrunthru]

so - if you are a dual passport holder Netanyahu won't let you out? Holding people there like ...... errrr....hostages?

 

[inbetween]

I think it’s gone way past that now, with what Netanyahu has embarked on. You’re perhaps right, but don’t just lump it on the Arab fundamentalists.
In 1994 Arafat and Rabin negotiated a two state solution and received the Nobel peace prize for the Oslo Accord.
Rabin was assassinated by an ultra nationalist student who opposed this.

There’s nut jobs on both sides, but the current Israeli government for various reasons have no intention of listening to reason. Conflict is opportunity for Netanyahu and always was.

The thing is, the only way to have a peaceful solution is to find a way to get the very people you describe to talk instead of shoot.

Thank Christ or Allah or whoever you like that the likes of John Hume and Mo Mowlam didn’t have the same attitude up North in the 1980-90s

Yes I totally agree but the forces behind everything in that region are the nutjobs. If you could remove the Netanyahu regime, Israeli ultra-nationalists, Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah and Houthi's from the equation then you might get somewhere.

That of course isn't going to happen and there is literally no chance of them talking because they're completely opposed to each other. There could be a huge difference between the demands of the Palestinians and the likes of Iran, Hamas etc for example. The Palestinians may just want peace and a two-state solution could be possible but there is nobody with any authority or certainly military authority who can put weight behind that idea.

The Palestinians unfortunately fall right into the middle of the simple question of whether Israel should exist or not, that is the cause of this war. If Israel should exist then how do you negotiate a line where the Palestinians do give up land to enable Israel to exist? That surely has to be recognised for peace but nobody is doing that.

 

[robbieh]

The Palestinians unfortunately fall right into the middle of the simple question of whether Israel should exist or not, that is the cause of this war. If Israel should exist then how do you negotiate a line where the Palestinians do give up land to enable Israel to exist? That surely has to be recognised for peace but nobody is doing that.

The Palestinians gave up half their land in 1948.
Still if we're going to find a solution now I'd say let Israel have Gaza and the seafront that they obviously want. In return get all the settlers out of the West Bank and that becomes Palestine.

I suspect the Palestinians would accept this. Absolutely sure Israel wouldn't as they want it all. That's the problem.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Yes I totally agree but the forces behind everything in that region are the nutjobs. If you could remove the Netanyahu regime, Israeli ultra-nationalists, Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah and Houthi's from the equation then you might get somewhere.

That of course isn't going to happen and there is literally no chance of them talking because they're completely opposed to each other. There could be a huge difference between the demands of the Palestinians and the likes of Iran, Hamas etc for example. The Palestinians may just want peace and a two-state solution could be possible but there is nobody with any authority or certainly military authority who can put weight behind that idea.

The Palestinians unfortunately fall right into the middle of the simple question of whether Israel should exist or not, that is the cause of this war. If Israel should exist then how do you negotiate a line where the Palestinians do give up land to enable Israel to exist? That surely has to be recognised for peace but nobody is doing that.

Trouble is Israel has been land grabbing right from the off.
We’re all familiar with with this;

The international community largely does not recognise the occupied territories since 1967 as Israeli owned.

 

[inbetween]

The Palestinians gave up half their land in 1948.
Still if we're going to find a solution now I'd say let Israel have Gaza and the seafront that they obviously want. In return get all the settlers out of the West Bank and that becomes Palestine.

I suspect the Palestinians would accept this. Absolutely sure Israel wouldn't as they want it all. That's the problem.

The problem is the part where you say "I suspect the Palestinians would accept this" because who today are the Palestinians and who is the key Palestinian authority on acceptance of such a thing?

The Palestinians don't have an authority that can be negotiated with so it doesn't really matter who wants what.

Meanwhile the west can isolate Netanyahu, it can sanction Netanyahu and the Israeli people could even vote out Netanyahu. What can be done about Hamas if Hamas (supported by Iran) chooses to continue to fight regardless?