It was Tony Barton as the post above states - Saunders was a bully and they only last so long.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Alan Ball: Did Franny Lee Really Think He Would Bring Trophies?
- Thread starter OnlyOneUweRosler
- Start date
nmc
Well-Known Member
Crazy we swapped him for Creaney.
I wouldn’t have swapped a chipped mug for Creaney… he really was taking the piss.
Gingers Dad
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 8 Mar 2011
- Messages
- 8,067
Dreadful manager. I think Frank Clarke is probably a rival to Benson for that particular title. An awful lot of money spent to build a Championship relegation team. Maybe the slowest set of professional players ever assembledI’ve said this before, but it deserves repeating on this thread.
Ball wasn’t our worst ever manager. That has to be John Benson. By loads of different metrics.
Gareth Barry Conlon
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 5 Sep 2014
- Messages
- 15,900
In my view. Horton was a very good manager. The club was a mess following the Kendall then Reid era where we hadn't kicked on from the promise of the young players who had emerged around 88 - 90.
Football was modernising fast in this period. City under Reid were having team meetings in pubs. This was not uncommon for that point in time but it was an end of an era. Sports science was a thing and forward thinking clubs were bringing in video analysts and nutritionists. Wenger was appointed by Arse in 96 and is credited with a big shift but certainly other clubs were looking at modernisation.
City was a mess with a booze culture and massive under investment on and off the pitch from the end of the Swales era.
Horton got the team playing with a distinctive style and fans were happy. There was maybe a limit to how far he would take us but what we didn't know at the time was that franny was struggling to get the club finances in order and were no better off the pitch in the mid 90s under Lee than we were under Swales. Alan Ball was a bad appointment but we were over achieving finishing 17th in 1995. Under Ball we finished 18th.
Football was modernising fast in this period. City under Reid were having team meetings in pubs. This was not uncommon for that point in time but it was an end of an era. Sports science was a thing and forward thinking clubs were bringing in video analysts and nutritionists. Wenger was appointed by Arse in 96 and is credited with a big shift but certainly other clubs were looking at modernisation.
City was a mess with a booze culture and massive under investment on and off the pitch from the end of the Swales era.
Horton got the team playing with a distinctive style and fans were happy. There was maybe a limit to how far he would take us but what we didn't know at the time was that franny was struggling to get the club finances in order and were no better off the pitch in the mid 90s under Lee than we were under Swales. Alan Ball was a bad appointment but we were over achieving finishing 17th in 1995. Under Ball we finished 18th.
Sky Blue Thinking
Well-Known Member
Dont forget the shadowy 5th column operating in the background. Maybe it was them who signed the likes of Bradbury, Brannan, Van Blerk etc.Dreadful manager. I think Frank Clarke is probably a rival to Benson for that particular title. An awful lot of money spent to build a Championship relegation team. Maybe the slowest set of professional players ever assembled
gordondaviesmoustache
Well-Known Member
Yes I’d say Benson, Ball and Clark were our worst three.Dreadful manager. I think Frank Clarke is probably a rival to Benson for that particular title. An awful lot of money spent to build a Championship relegation team. Maybe the slowest set of professional players ever assembled
The Colonel
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 10 Jul 2009
- Messages
- 2,265
Pretty much only Dickov and super Kev Horlock showed enough quality and desire from the new signings from this era to come through and survive. It’s a testament to their character and ability and why they’re fondly remembered by us.Add in the likes of Paul Beesley, Scott Hiley, Neil Heaney etc etc
GDM, you’re going to give me nightmares here. Bringing back those names, it’s like going back into the depths of despair;)Yes I’d say Benson, Ball and Clark were our worst three.
Citizen of Legoland
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 15 Jan 2013
- Messages
- 11,977
In Benson’s and Clark’s defence they did inherit poor and testing situations. Ball did what had proved successful at Southampton (his first time where his “style” worked, probably his only time) where he tried to rebuild a team around one player. Anyone following had to pick up the pieces of that PLUS the Coppell scenario. Clark seemed like a decent guy but he really had no chance. Benson had to follow a similar situation with John Bond (and Malcolm prior to that) where the heart of the team had been ripped out.Yes I’d say Benson, Ball and Clark were our worst three.
Funnily I remember exactly where I was when I heard Benson had been appointed. I was walking down a steep hill near my home and it must have been a prediction of the future.
Controversial perhaps but my top 3 worst (in my lifetime) are …
Ball
Allison
Bond
In that order. Benson 4th then Clark after.
Last edited:
I'm sorry that's not how I remember it at all, Horton was nice guy and should maybe have been given a bit more time but there were some horrible performances, I remember going down to Coventry and getting absolutely smashed by them, we seemed to have perhaps one good game and then loose the next three. Under Kendall and Reid the football was predictable but the team was hardly in a mess, after Reid was sacked we went from being a top 10 club to scrapping against relegation every season.In my view. Horton was a very good manager. The club was a mess following the Kendall then Reid era where we hadn't kicked on from the promise of the young players who had emerged around 88 - 90.
Football was modernising fast in this period. City under Reid were having team meetings in pubs. This was not uncommon for that point in time but it was an end of an era. Sports science was a thing and forward thinking clubs were bringing in video analysts and nutritionists. Wenger was appointed by Arse in 96 and is credited with a big shift but certainly other clubs were looking at modernisation.
City was a mess with a booze culture and massive under investment on and off the pitch from the end of the Swales era.
Horton got the team playing with a distinctive style and fans were happy. There was maybe a limit to how far he would take us but what we didn't know at the time was that franny was struggling to get the club finances in order and were no better off the pitch in the mid 90s under Lee than we were under Swales. Alan Ball was a bad appointment but we were over achieving finishing 17th in 1995. Under Ball we finished 18th.
Sky Blue Thinking
Well-Known Member
Wiekens was a decent servant and quality in 98/9 season.Pretty much only Dickov and super Kev Horlock showed enough quality and desire from the new signings from this era to come through and survive. It’s a testament to their character and ability and why they’re fondly remembered by us.
Cellarite
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 12 Jan 2010
- Messages
- 26,774
- Team supported
- Manchester City
I always thought Kendall was the one we needed to keep but he only wanted Everton once they made their interest known. Reid started well with Kendall's squad but then it started to slowly deteriorate. Horton did a good job under the circumstances - we played some great stuff at home but he didn't seem to know how to calm things down away at a time when home wins and away draws would put teams high up in the league. The core of the team was slowly broken up, Coton, Curle, Flitcroft, Quinn, Walsh, and replaced with vastly inferior players like Immel, Kernaghan and Creaney. Alan Ball was largely a disaster from day one and the full lead up to relegation put us in a terrible position that took us years to fix.
I remember a centre page spread in the Pink around the time Franny Lee took over, suggesting that Matt le Tissier and Les Ferdinand were targets amongst others but there was never going to be the money available to bring in players like them even if they'd have wanted to come.
I started going regularly in the 1988/89 promotion season and absolutely loved the period from then until the start of the Alan Ball season. I look at teams like Everton and West Ham these days and they remind me so much of us in the early 90's. A decent squad of players sometimes but always having to sell to buy and never quite getting it right.
I remember a centre page spread in the Pink around the time Franny Lee took over, suggesting that Matt le Tissier and Les Ferdinand were targets amongst others but there was never going to be the money available to bring in players like them even if they'd have wanted to come.
I started going regularly in the 1988/89 promotion season and absolutely loved the period from then until the start of the Alan Ball season. I look at teams like Everton and West Ham these days and they remind me so much of us in the early 90's. A decent squad of players sometimes but always having to sell to buy and never quite getting it right.
Gingers Dad
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 8 Mar 2011
- Messages
- 8,067
Allison seems to get a free ride from those that were there when he was Joe Mercer's assistant. What he and Swales managed to achieve in a couple of years was criminal.In Benson’s and Clark’s defence they did inherit poor and testing situations. Ball did what had proved successful at Southampton (his first time where his “style” worked, probably his only time) where he tried to rebuild a team around one player. Anyone following had to pick up the pieces of that PLUS the Coppell scenario. Clark seemed like a decent guy but he really had no chance. Benson had to follow a similar situation with John Bond (and Malcolm prior to that) where the heart of the team had been ripped out.
Funnily I remember exactly where I was when I heard Benson had been appointed. I was walking down a steep hill near my home and it must have been a prediction of the future.
Controversial perhaps but my top 3 worst (in my lifetime) are …
Ball
Allison
Bond
In that order. Benson 4th then Clark after.
pace89
Well-Known Member
Benson and Allison were before my time but of the managers I’ve seen Ball’s the worst. At least Clarke tried, but Ball was consumed with hubris from day 1. Whether it was his multiple ‘I’ve won the World Cup speeches’, Mrs Ball turning up to training to tell the back 4 they were too deep, or simply refusing to work on Friday because he had his head in the Racing Post he thought he was better than everyone around him and better than City. And that’s not to mention his terrible tactics or dreadful transfer business. Had we kept Horton we might have kept out head above water, but the second half of 94-95 was a mess. Everyone remembers the start of the season, the 5-2 V Spurs and beating Blackburn in April but most of the season after Christmas was relegation form. Lee was right to find a new manager but couldn’t have done much worse than Ball. There were periods in the 90s when the squad looked half decent, but it was thin and ageing by the time Ball took over. It’s often lamented that Immel was signed to replace Coton, but that only happened because Coton was constantly out injured. He managed 10 games in his career after he left City. Just like Walsh, replacing the player wasn't the problem, it was the choice of replacement.
It is a myth, however that Ball swapped Walsh for Creaney. Walsh asked for a transfer to Portsmouth as he said his legs had gone so Creaney was signed as his replacement. In reality Walsh probably fancied a move down south and a decent signing on fee. Creaney, of course, was terrible, but Ball seemed happy to direct quite a lot of cash at one of his former employers. Had we not sold Flitcroft we probably would have stayed up, but he’d have gone in the summer and we’d have gone down the following year anyway. City managed 38 points in 95-96 which sometimes keeps you up but in those days was often insufficient – in subsequent seasons Sunderland and Bolton went down on 40 points.
City’s biggest opportunity to progress was probably around 1990 when Kendall came in. We had Lake, Hendy, White, Allen, Reid, and Bishop amongst others but Kendal through the baby out with the bathwater. At the time everyone thought Kendall left for Everton because of his devotion to them, but in reality I suspect he’d clocked that Swales was an incompetent charlatan, the club was skint and he’d be forever robbing Peter to pay Paul. Things were ok under Reid for a bit, but the minute Sam Ellis got properly involved we were in trouble. Had they not been sacked they would have taken City down in 94.
The cliché that things are darkest before the dawn really applies to City. People always go on about how awful the squad was by the time we were relegated in ’98, but the reality is that City managed to get relegated despite having a team of players who should have been pushing for promotion. Alongside Kinkladze, when we went down at Stoke, City’s squad included Weaver, Edgehill, Jobson, Wiekens, Bishop, Horlock, Brown, Goater and Dickov. Other than Brown, all those players were central to City’s promotion back to the Premier League two years later, and Brown himself spent the bulk of his career in the top flight. Wiekens, Horlock and Goater were all central in the cementing City in the Premier League on 02-03.
It is a myth, however that Ball swapped Walsh for Creaney. Walsh asked for a transfer to Portsmouth as he said his legs had gone so Creaney was signed as his replacement. In reality Walsh probably fancied a move down south and a decent signing on fee. Creaney, of course, was terrible, but Ball seemed happy to direct quite a lot of cash at one of his former employers. Had we not sold Flitcroft we probably would have stayed up, but he’d have gone in the summer and we’d have gone down the following year anyway. City managed 38 points in 95-96 which sometimes keeps you up but in those days was often insufficient – in subsequent seasons Sunderland and Bolton went down on 40 points.
City’s biggest opportunity to progress was probably around 1990 when Kendall came in. We had Lake, Hendy, White, Allen, Reid, and Bishop amongst others but Kendal through the baby out with the bathwater. At the time everyone thought Kendall left for Everton because of his devotion to them, but in reality I suspect he’d clocked that Swales was an incompetent charlatan, the club was skint and he’d be forever robbing Peter to pay Paul. Things were ok under Reid for a bit, but the minute Sam Ellis got properly involved we were in trouble. Had they not been sacked they would have taken City down in 94.
The cliché that things are darkest before the dawn really applies to City. People always go on about how awful the squad was by the time we were relegated in ’98, but the reality is that City managed to get relegated despite having a team of players who should have been pushing for promotion. Alongside Kinkladze, when we went down at Stoke, City’s squad included Weaver, Edgehill, Jobson, Wiekens, Bishop, Horlock, Brown, Goater and Dickov. Other than Brown, all those players were central to City’s promotion back to the Premier League two years later, and Brown himself spent the bulk of his career in the top flight. Wiekens, Horlock and Goater were all central in the cementing City in the Premier League on 02-03.
Mancity1980
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 12 May 2011
- Messages
- 11,296
Ah, yes, I have just googled it. Saunders won the league and resigned in the February before his assistant won the European Cup. Still makes him a better manager in my then youthful eyes.I thought Tony Barton was Villa's manager when the won the European Cup.
Mancity1980
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 12 May 2011
- Messages
- 11,296
The local press coverage during that takeover was insane and I think, if we are being honest with ourselves, we all went a bit mad about Franny. Swales out Franny in was all I could think about. I remember Franny’s first game as chairman (against Ipswich?) and the euphoria was brilliant. The first red flag for me was an interview he did where he used the line “I’m not a Jack Walker”, I realised then we had been slightly misled but like others I gave him the benefit of the doubt. For me the problems started when he started to buy cheap rather than quality players and sell good existing players. The performances started to reflect that but I have to say the appointment of Alan Ball was the final straw and I stopped going, I don’t think I went to another match until Joe Royle was manager.I always thought Kendall was the one we needed to keep but he only wanted Everton once they made their interest known. Reid started well with Kendall's squad but then it started to slowly deteriorate. Horton did a good job under the circumstances - we played some great stuff at home but he didn't seem to know how to calm things down away at a time when home wins and away draws would put teams high up in the league. The core of the team was slowly broken up, Coton, Curle, Flitcroft, Quinn, Walsh, and replaced with vastly inferior players like Immel, Kernaghan and Creaney. Alan Ball was largely a disaster from day one and the full lead up to relegation put us in a terrible position that took us years to fix.
I remember a centre page spread in the Pink around the time Franny Lee took over, suggesting that Matt le Tissier and Les Ferdinand were targets amongst others but there was never going to be the money available to bring in players like them even if they'd have wanted to come.
I started going regularly in the 1988/89 promotion season and absolutely loved the period from then until the start of the Alan Ball season. I look at teams like Everton and West Ham these days and they remind me so much of us in the early 90's. A decent squad of players sometimes but always having to sell to buy and never quite getting it right.
He was and totally “got” City and turned up for the Final game at Maine Rd and everyone was keen to shake his hand etc -so fondly remembered and rightly so cos his teams played footballHorton always struck me as a very decent and down to earth guy. With a squad full of injuries, and no money, he managed to bring in Walsh, Rosler, Beagrie, Rocastle and saved city from relegation. 1994/5 was my first full season as a city fan, and it was genuinely exciting to see how city loved to attack and get stuck in. I genuinely believe Horton was on the verge of winning something when they fired him.
JGL07
Well-Known Member
Saunders didn’t win the European Cup with Villa. He flounced off mid season and was replaced by Tony Barton.I don’t quite remember Saunders but didn’t he go on to win the league and the European Cup with Villa? My understanding was he was a disciplinarian and Swales didn’t want that.
Went to the pre-season game at Scarborough and bumped into Michael Browns Dad outside pre-match and also after the game (2-2 draw) in the Scarborough Club Bar when Michael came out to meet up with him and was saying Ball was ranting on about his World Cup Medal to the players etc -some of which we had overheard from outside before we went in through an open window next to the Club Bar and asked young Michael about what was going on etcAlan Ball had a World Cup winners medal, you know.
I wonder if he ever mentioned that?