Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

inbetween said:
The government has said exactly what they're used for, they're used to assist in locating hostages. They're likely gathering signals data from Hamas operatives who may for example be talking on radios and giving away the location of the hostages. This will be passed onto the Israeli's who will I guess action it as they see fit.

Hamas are a proscribed terrorist organisation in the UK, Hamas leaders are wanted for war crimes and arrest warrants were issued by the ICC because taking hostages is itself a war crime. Hamas operatives are therefore arguably legitimate military targets just as much as ISIS operatives were.

Obviously Israel are doing terrible things aside from this but the fact is we're not helping them to do those things. It's hard to see why they would need our help because it isn't hard to locate Gaza on a map.
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there's no chance the government is lying of course
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
It does matter and you're wrong.

They aren't targeting civilians solely because of their race. They're targeting Hamas fighters and infrastructure, who are using civilians as human shields. To prove genocide you have to prove intent. Thats the key test. There's no doubt that the Nazis intended to exterminate every Jew (and others of various groups) as a matter of intent. That was genocide.

As has been pointed out by a few people, if there was an attempt at genocide in Gaza then the pattern of attacks by Israel would have been totally indiscriminate and there would have been vastly more casualties. Now if you're talking about October 7th, where people were targeted because they were Jewish, that's a different matter entirely.
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why are they starving the people then mate? they need the children to die out so they can more clearly see the remaining Hamas fighters in the rubble of the 90% of homes they've destroyed?
 
KPXBLN said:
there's no chance the government is lying of course
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That's not really a legal defence though is it? Why did they use armies of lawyers to check that drone strikes on ISIS were legal when they could have just done it anyway and lied about it?

It's also odd that the Tories apparently oversaw helping Israel after 7/10 and Labour have continued it, why? What is the government gaining from apparently using the RAF to help Israel to commit genocide? It doesn't make sense.

The truth in reality is that the RAF is not helping Israel to commit genocide, the support is limited to helping find hostages which is fully supported under international law. This is why attacking RAF planes is utterly stupid.

The contribution of the arms trade to what Israel is doing is a different story but that has nothing to do with the RAF.
 
inbetween said:
That's not really a legal defence though is it? Why did they use armies of lawyers to check that drone strikes on ISIS were legal when they could have just done it anyway and lied about it?

It's also odd that the Tories apparently oversaw helping Israel after 7/10 and Labour have continued it, why? What is the government gaining from apparently using the RAF to help Israel to commit genocide? It doesn't make sense.

The truth in reality is that the RAF is not helping Israel to commit genocide, the support is limited to helping find hostages which is fully supported under international law. This is why attacking RAF planes is utterly stupid.

The contribution of the arms trade to what Israel is doing is a different story but that has nothing to do with the RAF.
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whether or not it's a legal defence isn't my point. I'm just pointing out that when we are 3rd parties discussing events on a football forum, as opposed to defendants charged with crimes, we have the option of starting from a premise which accurately reflects reality - that the government is deeply dishonest when it comes to Israel.

There's plenty of evidence the RAF is being used to supply weapons to Israel for use in the genocide, including that the base in Cyprus is made available to US planes carrying such equipment (as reported by Haaretz), as well as RAF cargo flights from Cyprus to Israel, whose contents have remained secret. (Cargo planes obviously are not being used to look for hostages). As to the question of why the government would use the RAF to aid the genocide - well I don't know, but presumably for the same reasons that the government is helping Israel commit genocide in multiple other ways.
 
KPXBLN said:
why are they starving the people then mate? they need the children to die out so they can more clearly see the remaining Hamas fighters in the rubble of the 90% of homes they've destroyed?
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Except Hamas are in tunnels, not out in the open. I'd say they're doing it to put pressure on Hamas to agree to a ceasefire. There's also a case for saying it's Hamas who aren't allowing aid in, in order to put pressure on Israel. Both sides are cynical and murderous.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
Except Hamas are in tunnels, not out in the open. I'd say they're doing it to put pressure on Hamas to agree to a ceasefire. There's also a case for saying it's Hamas who aren't allowing aid in, in order to put pressure on Israel. Both sides are cynical and murderous.
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Starving kids for a tactical advantage... what a horrible world we live in.

"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster"
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
Except Hamas are in tunnels, not out in the open. I'd say they're doing it to put pressure on Hamas to agree to a ceasefire. There's also a case for saying it's Hamas who aren't allowing aid in, in order to put pressure on Israel. Both sides are cynical and murderous.
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Israel don't want a ceasefire. They don't want a Palestinian state as we saw with the US/Israel statement today. Everything else is just done for optics.
I will be very surprised if there's a Palestinian left in Gaza or the West Bank in 10 years. That's the plan and has been for a long time.
 
robbieh said:
Israel don't want a ceasefire. They don't want a Palestinian state as we saw with the US/Israel statement today. Everything else is just done for optics.
I will be very surprised if there's a Palestinian left in Gaza or the West Bank in 10 years. That's the plan and has been for a long time.
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I'm not sure either side is desperate for a ceasefire. There's also more this goes on, the more pressure Hamas can put on Israel, and on the Israeli side the more Netanyahu can look tough and stay out of court over his corruption indictment.

Before any of this kicked off, I've always said the two sides need each other in order to justify both their existences and actions.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
Hamas murdered women &children. As I said, not much to choose between either side in this conflict.
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Hamas wanted hostages to trade for the thousands of palestinian hostages israel holds (thousands without trial by the way).

Israel killed most of their own people on October 7th when they ordered the hannibal directive. Most women and children were likely murdered by israel. The video of Hamas taking the Bibas family hostage is evidence of this.

The bibas family were lucky to get away from the israeli apache helicopters on October 7th, but sadly israel bombed the bibas family a couple of months later anyway

There is plenty to choose between resistance fighters and and a brutal occupation that has tortured and murdered palestinians for decades
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
Hamas murdered women &children. As I said, not much to choose between either side in this conflict.
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There’s many differences but not in a strict moral sense in that murderous actions have been committed by both sides.
The difference is in power. Israel claims to be a western style democracy; it has many friends and allies in the west; it has money; it has financial backing by the US for the IDF; it is not subject to a blockade and there are more practical differences, for example in terms of transport and personal movement.
This makes a big difference in that the Palestinians are bound to be fearful and frustrated. No surprise that many have turned to Hamas. There once was an agreement on real steps to the two state solution but an Israeli fanatic put paid to that by murdering the Israeli PM. No doubt many optimistic Palestinians felt a big sense of loss when that agreement fell. Helplessness set in.
So while you can say that there is not much to choose morally, Israel is the only party that can lead everyone out of this nightmare. Clearly it is eschewing that course.
As Trump would say, Netanyahu has all the cards.
 
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The US condemns French recognition of Palestine
I don’t think that will concern Macron, Netanyahu is just about to announce his evil plan of annexing Gaza

The BBC said “Israel to allow foreign food aid drops in Gaza, not before time :)
 
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Prestwich_Blue said:
I'm not sure either side is desperate for a ceasefire. There's also more this goes on, the more pressure Hamas can put on Israel, and on the Israeli side the more Netanyahu can look tough and stay out of court over his corruption indictment.

Before any of this kicked off, I've always said the two sides need each other in order to justify both their existences and actions.
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Israel and Hamas signed a ceasefire in January which provided for multiple stages, moving towards release of all hostages in Gaza and “prisoners” in Israel (many of whom have not been charged with any crime). The party which refused to move onto the next stage and instead resumed the violence was Israel, which it did in March.
 
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