Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

[Postman Pep]

Yes, but the immediate issue is not the Palestinians right to self-determination.

It never is though is it which is kind of the problem.

The immediate issue right now is to try and stop the senseless slaughter of the people of Gaza.

Some of us have been saying that for over 18 months now .... welcome aboard.

So, yes, the UK is now threatening to do something the Israeli Govt does not want as means of applying pressure to stop the butchery. We should have done this months ago.

The pressure being "if you don't stop this abuse we will recognise your victims right to exist but if you stop and play nice we won't". Sanctions, end all military co-operation and expel the nutty ambassador. Concrete measures not empty gestures.

The Israeli Govt will ignore us as long as they have the US in their corner. This is where the tragic myopia of US Muslim leaders in the election in backing Trump and people thinking he can’t be worse than Harris on Gaza when a blind man could see he would be a lot worse.

Talk about myopic. The majority of the deaths happened on the Biden/Harris watch, as did the dismantling of UNWRA. This is a bi-partisan genocide and to suggest things would be markedly better had Harris won requires a huge leap of faith.

A step in the right direction is still a step in the right direction and to quote a certain Chinese leader a journey starts with a single step.

... yet the situation requires a 'great leap forward'.

 

[domalino]

Wow does that mean the 'surgical precision strikes', that was fiercely debated and defended a few months ago was actually a load of old bollocks!? I'm seeing a pattern now: Precision strikes.... Never attack hospitals....Not restricting aid....Not a famine...Not a genocide...kinda starting to feel like I've been lied to.

But you’re forgetting it’s OK for them to bomb hospitals in case some of the patients are hamas.

And it’s ok to starve 2 million people to death in case some of that food and water ends up in a Hamas stomach.

IDF motto - “we’re not doing anything wrong but if we are, we’re allowed to.”

 

[dublinblue12]

sorry to say if you are unaware that those were lies you have been had hahahahahaha

Next I will be hearing there's not a shed of evidence to back up Hamas were hijacking aid

 

[BobKowalski]

It never is though is it which is kind of the problem.

Some of us have been saying that for over 18 months now .... welcome aboard.

The pressure being "if you don't stop this abuse we will recognise your victims right to exist but if you stop and play nice we won't". Sanctions, end all military co-operation and expel the nutty ambassador. Concrete measures not empty gestures.

Talk about myopic. The majority of the deaths happened on the Biden/Harris watch, as did the dismantling of UNWRA. This is a bi-partisan genocide and to suggest things would be markedly better had Harris won requires a huge leap of faith.

... yet the situation requires a 'great leap forward'.

The problem right now is that they are being systematically slaughtered. Self-determination ain’t much use for a corpse.

Yes. It is a cynical move to try and force the Israeli Govt to stop, because stopping the slaughter, and bringing relief and aid is what is needed right now.

If people refuse to see differences in people, then they are refusing to see the world as it is. Was Biden bad on Gaza? Yes. Will Trump be worse on Gaza? Yes. Would Harris be more susceptible to pressure than Trump? Yes. The Democratic base has swung from being pro Israel to over 40 points favouring the Palestinians. It is nigh on 60 points with voters under 45. Would Harris feel that pressure? Too fucking right she would.

People in the West can take a moral stance, argue and vote with their conscience, and I’m happy for them, but whose concerns are they putting first when it comes to issues like this? Their own or the people of Gaza?

 

[Vic]

Zionists you have made yourselves and fellow Jews pariahs around the world. When the full extent of what has happened in Gaza when journalists can get in the reputational damage you have done will take generations to mend if at all possible

I'm sorry to say I'm not appalled. Throwing people out of a restaurant for speaking Hebrew isn't right, but some of the passengers on the ship were reportedly shouting "we'll burn your villages" to the protesters. If Israel commits war crimes, it's going to be hard to distinguish between Israeli tourists who support war crimes and those who don't.

From the interview between Jon Stewart and Peter Beinart. Netanyahu is getting away with it, and "there has to be some consequences so Israelis see that this is not good for them".

Do Israelis really think no-one anywhere is bothered about genocide?

Here, the Board of Deputies seems more aware.

“It is clear that our community overwhelmingly rejects the appalling rhetoric and unacceptable proposals from some Israeli ministers, particularly in relation to the forced displacement of Gazans, as well as the intolerable violence perpetrated by extremist settlers in the West Bank, all of which are in complete contradiction to our values.

“Our solidarity remains with the Israeli people. This war continues to take an unbearable toll on them, and we know that most want to see it end as soon as possible. It is also taking a toll on our own community, including through the unacceptable proliferation of hatred and discrimination directed at Jews in this country."

Board of Deputies holds special meeting to discuss humanitarian situation in Gaza

The Board of Deputies this evening held a special meeting for its Deputies to discuss the organisation’s response to developments in the Middle East, including the desperate humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip and the latest UK announcement in relation to recognition of a Palestinian state...

bod.org.uk

 

[Don Karleone]

 

[Postman Pep]

The problem right now is that they are being systematically slaughtered.

The systematic slaughter has been the problem for over 600 days and counting .... like I say welcome aboard.

Self-determination ain’t much use for a corpse.

Is that a direct quote or an ancient Zionist proverb?

Self determination via the '2 state solution' has been in a corpse like state for 25 years ... after being stillborn for the previous 33.

But I'm not the one spinning this as 'meaningful', you are. So ...

Yes. It is a cynical move to try and force the Israeli Govt to stop, because stopping the slaughter, and bringing relief and aid is what is needed right now.

So no reply to the idea of sanctioning them to the highest degree .... just some empty gestures. "we tried nothing and now we are all out of ideas".

If people refuse to see differences in people, then they are refusing to see the world as it is.

Counterpoint. This is about the reality of outcomes regardless of the characters involved, as cartoonish as they are.

It is why you are refusing to see this 'conflict' as it is ... and the exact mindset that has perpetuated this injustice for 8 decades.

Was Biden bad on Gaza? Yes. Will Trump be worse on Gaza? Yes.

Case in point ... a refusal to join the dots. Biden laid the groundwork for Trump to be even worse ... maybe if he had put a stop to the place being levelled on his watch it wouldn't have been so easy for Trump to lapse into his 'real estate' mode and say it all out loud?

s Would Harris be more susceptible to pressure than Trump? Yes. The Democratic base has swung from being pro Israel to over 40 points favouring the Palestinians. It is nigh on 60 points with voters under 45. Would Harris feel that pressure? Too fucking right she would.

So where is the opposition now to support your hypothetical "too fucking right she would"?

Just last week the likes of AOC and Sanders refused to get behind an attempt to suspend a weapons/aid package in some form or other, not just because it was an initiative put forward by MTG, but because it involved resupplying the iron dome under the guise of "protecting civilians".

But then again your idea of pressure is threatening to recognise a state that cannot feasibly be viable given the facts on the ground.

People in the West can take a moral stance, argue and vote with their conscience, and I’m happy for them, but whose concerns are they putting first when it comes to issues like this? Their own or the people of Gaza?

From down here it's pretty clear .... can see all the clouds on your "not at all moral highground".

In hindsight maybe I should have just replied with this :-)

 

[The Fat el Hombre]

Yea they're cracking on with the massacres - another 50 or so murdered today apparently Link. All whilst letting fuck all aid in, as expected.

The Washington post has published the names of all the children murdered during the genocide. Western doctors and a considerable amount of video evidence have shown us that the iof have murdered a number of these children just for fun:

 

[the blue panther]

I hope they recognise Upper Brook Street soon.
What?
It's nothing to do with Palatine Road?
Doh!

 

[Rodri’s ACL]

Broadcast on the news interviewing Israelis who claim that they’re giving the palestinians food, that all Palestinians are terrorists, they’re the real victims, that the UK’s actions are pro-Hamas and that the images coming out of Gaza aren’t real. The last bit really boils my blood because there are thousands of children starving to their deaths and mother watching their kids starve to death, but settlers claim that it is just not happening. It is just inhumane.

 

[BobKowalski]

Canada to recognise Palestinian state in September following France and UK. Australia is considering doing the same.

Canada follows France and UK with plan to recognise Palestinian state

Mark Carney says it depends on Palestinian democratic reforms, while Donald Trump says it could stymie a US-Canada trade deal.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[halfcenturyup]

The problem right now is that they are being systematically slaughtered. Self-determination ain’t much use for a corpse.

Yes. It is a cynical move to try and force the Israeli Govt to stop, because stopping the slaughter, and bringing relief and aid is what is needed right now.

If people refuse to see differences in people, then they are refusing to see the world as it is. Was Biden bad on Gaza? Yes. Will Trump be worse on Gaza? Yes. Would Harris be more susceptible to pressure than Trump? Yes. The Democratic base has swung from being pro Israel to over 40 points favouring the Palestinians. It is nigh on 60 points with voters under 45. Would Harris feel that pressure? Too fucking right she would.

People in the West can take a moral stance, argue and vote with their conscience, and I’m happy for them, but whose concerns are they putting first when it comes to issues like this? Their own or the people of Gaza?

The people who fund them?

 

[Vic]

I've not seen the full argument by "top lawyers" that recognising a Palestinian state would be illegal. (So are war crimes and genocide.)

But it's reported that it warns that if this was to go ahead, Britain's Government would be unable to recognise millions of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza as "refugees" because the recognition of a state would mean they were in their own territory.

Nothing then about Israel throwing the UN refugee organisation out of Gaza...

Anything about Israel's illegal occupation?

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Seems that a lot of the media have purposely misinterpreted the governments words and left out the part about Hamas:

‘Our message to the terrorists of Hamas is unchanged and unequivocal … "They must immediately release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, disarm and accept that they will play no part in the government of Gaza.’

But, as the BBC put it, that part hasn’t been consistently articulated, so must mean it doesn’t matter.

Good to see Canada taking the same line, the more the world comes around to condemning all sides, hopefully better for the people of Palestine.

 

[robbieh]

I've not seen the full argument by "top lawyers" that recognising a Palestinian state would be illegal. (So are war crimes and genocide.)

But it's reported that it warns that if this was to go ahead, Britain's Government would be unable to recognise millions of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza as "refugees" because the recognition of a state would mean they were in their own territory.

Nothing then about Israel throwing the UN refugee organisation out of Gaza...

Anything about Israel's illegal occupation?

The big question for me is how this is going to play out on the ground.
Are Jews living in the West Bank going to stay when it becomes Palestine. Will Israeli Arabs be asked to move to the new Palestinian state. Ideally two nations not formed on an ethnoreligious basis would be better. But given what's happened recently I can't see anything but mayhem if you allow the more radical settlers to stay. And once Israel loses the West Bank the current right wing sentiment would surely lead to severe actions taken against the Israeli Arabs.
Whatever happens a UN peace keeping force needs to be in place for protection of Palestinians and Arab states need to help make Palestine viable financially in exchange for deals with Israel.
This is a long road.

 

[Snape]

Lord Pannick having his say.

 

[Vic]

The big question for me is how this is going to play out on the ground.
Are Jews living in the West Bank going to stay when it becomes Palestine. Will Israeli Arabs be asked to move to the new Palestinian state. Ideally two nations not formed on an ethnoreligious basis would be better. But given what's happened recently I can't see anything but mayhem if you allow the more radical settlers to stay. And once Israel loses the West Bank the current right wing sentiment would surely lead to severe actions taken against the Israeli Arabs.
Whatever happens a UN peace keeping force needs to be in place for protection of Palestinians and Arab states need to help make Palestine viable financially in exchange for deals with Israel.
This is a long road.

Indeed. Just one instance.

Palestinian Christian villages in the West Bank are being targeted by Jewish settlers (funded by American Christians).

Palestinian Christians would happily go back to when Muslims, Christians and Jews lived harmoniously in Palestine, before Zionist colonialism. That's not going to happen, but they wouldn't want to live in an "Islamic state" either.

 

[robbieh]

The other problem I see from the Palestinian point of view is that currently Israel wants more land not less and they have all the firepower
In addition Britain and France are not likely to be trusted. We'll probably offer the Palestinians something completely unacceptable which they'll reject. Israel and the West will then spin it as the Palestinians not being serious about a 2 state solution.

 

[Postman Pep]

The other problem I see from the Palestinian point of view is that currently Israel wants more land not less and they have all the firepower
In addition Britain and France are not likely to be trusted. We'll probably offer the Palestinians something completely unacceptable which they'll reject. Israel and the West will then spin it as the Palestinians not being serious about a 2 state solution.

Same old playbook rinsed and repeated.

 

[dublinblue12]

Seems that a lot of the media have purposely misinterpreted the governments words and left out the part about Hamas:

‘Our message to the terrorists of Hamas is unchanged and unequivocal … "They must immediately release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, disarm and accept that they will play no part in the government of Gaza.’

But, as the BBC put it, that part hasn’t been consistently articulated, so must mean it doesn’t matter.

Good to see Canada taking the same line, the more the world comes around to condemning all sides, hopefully better for the people of Palestine.

Yeah I noticed this. Not just the bbc either. It sounds like a win for everyone in full especially if it means the end of Hamas as well. Leaving that off makes it a different sell. I wouldn't get much hope up for it however, neither side will probably agree.