Palestine Action

[oldius]

You've missed the point spectacularly.

I haven't. I understand it but don't agree.

 

[KS55]

Yep.

I’ve never publicly supported a proscribed terrorist group though.

Check out the history of the 2000 Terrorism Act. Section 44 thereof was vague and drawn widely, similar to this act. When it was criticised as preventing legitimate protest Tony Blair said “It will only be used in extreme circumstances” neatly bypassing the fact that the gov has no role in how an act is implemented on the ground.
There was a famous incident in which the police inspector in charge at a protest denied on the news that people at the protest were being arrested under s44. Cut to policeman saying “I am arresting you on suspicion of breaking the Terrorism Act s44.”
And guess what the protest was about…….the arms trade.
S44 gradually fell into disrepute, the courts were reluctant to convict, the press continued to criticise it. and it was repealed. Rinse and repeat.
So, it is not as though the gov, the police, and the public have nothing to refer back to. The current Home Secretary was a junior minister at the time, so she knew. The legality of this proscription will be tested in court shortly, so it would be politic of the gov to suspend it in the meantime, but they are digging their heals in.
As to your statement that you have never supported a terrorist organisation, well, neither have the overwhelming majority of those arrested. You can’t turn protesters into terrorists by Statutory Notice.

 

[Craig]

You've missed the point spectacularly.

He’s not really. One is a racist scumbag and the other is standing up for people being murdered and starved to death. I suppose it’s all about opinions.Some people think it’s nonsense to call them a terrorist organisation. Whilst others on here still deny Israel are committing genocide.

 

[BobKowalski]

I’m not suggesting people should blindly support every policy of the party they voted for; typically people vote for the party that best represents their views, rather than perfectly representing them.

But I do find it a little peculiar that someone should spend so much time criticising government policy on an issue which apparently matters greatly to them, and then go out and about knocking on doors and asking them to support that particular government.

Asking people to support the status quo is unlikely to change the situation, I would suggest.

Except the status quo is shifting. The Labour Govt, in conjunction with other Govts, is inching (slowly) towards pressuring Israel and advocating for a separate Palestine State. The German Govt has paused arms sales to Israel which for them is a major shift in attitude and policy. Israel is pushing former allies toward the pro-Palestinian camp.

I fully support this move by Labour as it has more real world significance than any street protest or my personal annoyance over the botched handling of Palestinian Action - something that was done to appease right wing voters by being ‘tough on terrorism’. It was total bollocks then and even more total bollocks now. But I live in the real world and I value real world action with real world consequences over dumb PR shit no matter how annoying.

 

[KS55]

This is correct. Whether the proscription of Palestine Action was right or wrong, there are many ways people can legitimately and legally protest about Gaza. And regardless of my views, I support their right to do that. Supporting a banned organisation isn't one of those ways however.

Yesterday was akin to someone driving their car and ramming a mobile speed camera van, resulting in a driving ban. Then driving past another, while serving that ban and flicking a v-sign at it.

And imagine if it was Yaxley-Lennon leading a march supporting a proscribed far right group. I strongly suspect the same people complaining about people being arrested en masse for supporting a banned group wouldn't be quite so vocal in their protests about mass arrests in this case.

You are ignoring the idea of consent. Consent need not be universal but if there is a significant body of dissent, the gov should pause. So the proscription of PA cannot be compared to the driving laws which have consent. The vast majority of those arrested do not support terrorism and the gov know that.
There have been arrests where there was no overt pro PA statements: the police say that expressing opposition to Israeli policy is support for PA, so your first para is not accurate.

 

[oldius]

He’s not really. One is a racist scumbag and the other is standing up for people being murdered and starved to death. I suppose it’s all about opinions.Some people think it’s nonsense to call them a terrorist organisation. Whilst others on here still deny Israel are committing genocide.

This.
It's about principles, not just blind adherence to the law.
Generally, I am a law-abiding citizen. I'm closer to 60 than I'd like to be, and I've been employed all my life. I have my own house and have raised four kids. I support the principles of PA. I abhor the principles of Yaxley Lennon.

 

[KS55]

Yep.

I’ve never publicly supported a proscribed terrorist group though.

So you are choosing which laws to obey to the letter and which not. What is the basis of your choice?

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

You are ignoring the idea of consent. Consent need not be universal but if there is a significant body of dissent, the gov should pause. So the proscription of PA cannot be compared to the driving laws which have consent. The vast majority of those arrested do not support terrorism and the gov know that.
There have been arrests where there was no overt pro PA statements: the police say that expressing opposition to Israeli policy is support for PA, so your first para is not accurate.

I don't agree with 20mph speed limits but I observe them. Well ish.

I don't consent to the laws that don't allow us to drink alcohol in view of the pitch at football matches, but I observe them as I know there would be consequences if I didn't.

There is a legal process underway to challenge the proscription and it may get overturned. Or it may get upheld. If the courts accept the proscription then will you?

 

[Craig]

I don't agree with 20mph speed limits but I observe them. Well ish.

I don't consent to the laws that don't allow us to drink alcohol in view of the pitch at football matches, but I observe them as I know there would be consequences if I didn't.

There is a legal process underway to challenge the proscription and it may get overturned. Or it may get upheld. If the courts accept the proscription then will you?

Just get the large coke cups if you fancy a pint during the 2nd half. You’ll be ok then i promise.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

This.
It's about principles, not just blind adherence to the law.
Generally, I am a law-abiding citizen. I'm closer to 60 than I'd like to be, and I've been employed all my life. I have my own house and have raised four kids. I support the principles of PA. I abhor the principles of Yaxley Lennon.

The principles of PA involve violence & intimidation to get their messages across and you support that. Good to know that people can suspend their moral guidelines when it suits their "principles".

 

[domalino]

What a daft comment.

Have you been arrested yet for supporting Palestine Action yet?

If you haven’t, does that make you a bootlicker as well?

What other laws do you routinely ignore? Do you have a skinful and drive home? Silly.

There’s no argument against anything I said here.

I follow laws because I agree with them. I think it’s wrong to cause people including myself unnecessary danger so I follow speed limits and never drink and drive.

If the government brought back section 28 or took away women’s vote again, I’d protest and flout those laws all day.

We live in a democracy so there’s always a certain element of living but the will of the majority, but protesting government actions comes under that umbrella.

Your only argument is that the government made it illegal so it’s bad. You’re an authoritarian, just own it.

That’s also why you find it so hard to understand that these people were protesting the law, not just the genocide in Gaza, despite dozens of comments explaining it to you, because you seemingly can’t comprehend people thinking the government is in the wrong.

You also didn’t answer anything in the comment. Will you support PA if the high court rules in their favour? Did you think the miners were terrorists?

 

[Brewster's millions]

There’s no argument against anything I said here.

I follow laws because I agree with them. I think it’s wrong to cause people including myself unnecessary danger so I follow speed limits and never drink and drive.

If the government brought back section 28 or took away women’s vote again, I’d protest and flout those laws all day.

We live in a democracy so there’s always a certain element of living but the will of the majority, but protesting government actions comes under that umbrella.

Your only argument is that the government made it illegal so it’s bad. You’re an authoritarian, just own it.

That’s also why you find it so hard to understand that these people were protesting the law, not just the genocide in Gaza, despite dozens of comments explaining it to you, because you seemingly can’t comprehend people thinking the government is in the wrong.

You also didn’t answer anything in the comment. Will you support PA if the high court rules in their favour? Did you think the miners were terrorists?

Utter waffle.

Have you been arrested for supporting Palestine Action yet?

If you haven’t, do you believe yourself to be a bootlicker?

 

[RiversideBlue]

No too many people in this country and the world don't give a fuck about anything beyond their little bubble. If you think people caring about dead and starving kids is anywhere near the top of taking responsibility for your own actions then that is some fucked up way of looking af things.

I never said that at all. Dont twist my words. They could have joined the other protest. They didnt need to back whats considered a terrorist group to do fight the issue. I happen to agree with the main protests byt backing a group considered terrorists, taking actions against our defense forces, and disabling a plane that had been used for aid drops, ian't the way to do it.

 

[oldius]

The principles of PA involve violence & intimidation to get their messages across and you support that. Good to know that people can suspend their moral guidelines when it suits their "principles".

You see, I am not really a fan of violence and intimidation. It's generally why I don't support the mass slaughter of humans in Gaza. That also is why, in this case, I understand and can support direct action against arms companies that supply Israel with the weaponry that allows them to slay so many. In the same way we can look back upon the civil rights struggles in the US and understand the need for some of the direct action that was taken. History tells us that laws that authorised and promoted segregation were wrong, yet the US government refused to take action until the noise became so great that it could no longer be silenced.

I would prefer our government to have the moral compass to stop supplying Israel, then the aims and role of PA are nullified. I suspect there will need to be more direct action to elicit change. 8bn global consumers refusing to buy goods produced by Israel and the US would probably be my starting point.

 

[domalino]

Utter waffle.



Have you been arrested for supporting Palestine Action yet?

If you haven’t, do you believe yourself to be a bootlicker?

This is just a straw man and doesn’t convince anyone.

I’m not arguing everyone has to support PA or they’re a bootlicker, I’m telling you you’re a authoritarian because the only reason you’ve come up with for them being in the wrong is “Yvette cooper said they’re illegal”. And if the government told you tomorrow something else was illegal you’d be against that too.


If you’d managed to come up with a different argument for why PA should be banned, I’d have disagreed and explained all the reasons why this proscription was overreach, but I wouldn’t be calling you a bootlicker.

The lawyers defending PA in the courts and fighting to get the proscription overturned probably aren’t getting arrested yesterday either, they’re still supporting them.

 

[domalino]

The principles of PA involve violence & intimidation to get their messages across and you support that. Good to know that people can suspend their moral guidelines when it suits their "principles".

Suffragettes, miners, anti apartheid, CND.

This country’s history is absolutely full of protest groups that have destroyed physical property (which they were rightfully arrested and punished for).

Those causes have been criticised for that because not everyone believes it’s valid (a fair debate to have with points on both sides), but they weren’t declared terrorists and it didn’t become illegal to simply support their cause.

 

[metalblue]

I’m missing fuck all.

March in support of Palestine. Demand and end to what the IDF is doing. Demonstrate for an end to Netanyahu and his government. Highlight the suffering of the people of Gaza.

Do all that without mentioning PA and no one cares, especially the government and police and it makes the news still.

They can’t because many on the left just can’t help themselves and never will. It’s always more about them than it is any cause.

They certainly aren’t helping themselves. PA being a proscribed group is under a legal challenge let that run its course without winding up dibble.

Personally I don’t think they should be a proscribed group.

 

[Vic]

If you think that a genocide is happening in Gaza and that the Labour government is complicit in this, as well as wrongly proscribing Palestine Action as a terror group, then why do you choose to go around knocking on doors and canvassing support for this Labour government?

What are you doing to change government policy on these matters? Issues which you complain about on here, day after day?

Are you changing government policy, or supporting it?

If you think that a genocide is happening in Gaza and that the Labour government is complicit in this, as well as wrongly proscribing Palestine Action as a terror group, then why do you choose to go around knocking on doors and canvassing support for this Labour government?

What are you doing to change government policy on these matters? Issues which you complain about on here, day after day?

Are you changing government policy, or supporting it?

Proposed two months ago at the constituency party that the UK recognise Palestine. Chivvy my MP continually about the genocide (and the daftness of proscribing PA).

That's me and it's minor stuff.

What have you done to stop the genocide?

 

[Vic]

Donated, what have you?

Donated to what?

 

[Vic]

I thought that Palestinian Action was a banned (illegal) organisation?
They say that truth is the first casualty of war, and I believe that.
The whole thing is a tragedy, unfortunately Hamas are doing nothing to improve the situation.
Israel have tried to broker deals (which have been rejected), then there is the hostage situation and on top of all that there is the way that the Palestinian people view life and death, which is entirely different to how we do.
My advice is for people to think about these things before rallying behind an alien flag.

Wow. Seriously you're trying to say Palestinians are indifferent to being bombed, starved, and have land stolen?

I can't be bothered with the rest of your Netanyahu propaganda.