Charlie Kirk shot dead at Utah university

Charlie Kirk in 2023: "It's worth it to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year, so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God-given rights...That is a prudent deal."
*
I've not seen what responses were offered directly to Kirk, but in general demagogues work by constructing their own argument, and counter-argument involves being able to identify any logical fallacies in the foundations of that argument.

Presumably if this line is used again, the counter question should be "what if the gun death is you, or close family, or at your kids' school? When it's close to home and not a faceless crime to the person making the claim. Is that still an acceptable cost?"

It is really easy to make unpleasant measures seem reasonable by taking them as a broad picture. Going the other way and picking the detail is also important to consider.

Also "what are these god-given rights that you need guns to protect? are you telling me that there are no other alternatives, and why they are (if they are) needing protection. It is not a 'this is the only answer' scenario."
 
ChicagoBlue said:



I’ll just leave that right here and thank my lucky stars none of my black pilot friends ever got their hands on this racist POS. Or, any of my female pilot friends, one of whom I’m flying with today and whose husband was a Marine…and they BOTH abhor this chump.

And, for those interested in this uneducated fool, Harper College is where High School grads who can’t get into an actual university go to try to gin up their educational profile so they might be able to get in in year 3 of 4…if they graduate with a 2 yr Associates Degree, which Kirk couldn’t even accomplish!

Not even graduating from Harper, and not graduating and going on to university, even a Christian Conservative one (of which there are many), tells you both what he achieved in H.S. AND what he achieved as an adult in Community College….NADA, ZIP, ZILCH!

And, given the racial melting pot that is Harper, I’d venture they’re embarrassed the world knows he went there…and he’d get his ass kicked on a daily basis if he spewed his rhetoric there today!
Click to expand...

Jheeze. Kirk aside, the focus on his educational achievements comes across as some sort of superiority complex.

Intelligence and the ability to demonstrate critical thinking, speed of thought and other cognitive functions are not associated with your education.

Disagree with people's opinions all you want but to connect someone's education and them being a fool is bad taste in my opinion. And, frankly, not true for many who've gone onto achieve amazing things without collecting so much as a GCSE.
 
VOOMER said:
There isn't a position where he can blame the entire left wing for this.

Bernie Sanders posted this.

Click to expand...


The radical left have radicalised the pussy hat wearing drones on campuses and in cities across America, as you rightly point out not the left the radical left.

A distinction I can make but the media in the main in the US can't seem to stomach.
 
Otamendi's Beard said:
Jheeze. Kirk aside, the focus on his educational achievements comes across as some sort of superiority complex.

Intelligence and the ability to demonstrate critical thinking, speed of thought and other cognitive functions are not associated with your education.

Disagree with people's opinions all you want but to connect someone's education and them being a fool is bad taste in my opinion. And, frankly, not true for many who've gone onto achieve amazing things without collecting so much as a GCSE.
Click to expand...
Slightly different to attempting "higher education" and failing though.
 
VOOMER said:
So feel he had it coming?
Click to expand...
The phrase "he had it coming" is usually used when someone actively courts the danger they are dismissing.
In this case Kirk said a small number of deaths are acceptable and he just happened to be one of them. This will be demonstrated as his death won't lead to significant changes to the gun laws.
I accept it's a fine distinction I felt his comments worth mentioning.
 
ChicagoBlue said:



I’ll just leave that right here and thank my lucky stars none of my black pilot friends ever got their hands on this racist POS. Or, any of my female pilot friends, one of whom I’m flying with today and whose husband was a Marine…and they BOTH abhor this chump.

And, for those interested in this uneducated fool, Harper College is where High School grads who can’t get into an actual university go to try to gin up their educational profile so they might be able to get in in year 3 of 4…if they graduate with a 2 yr Associates Degree, which Kirk couldn’t even accomplish!

Not even graduating from Harper, and not graduating and going on to university, even a Christian Conservative one (of which there are many), tells you both what he achieved in H.S. AND what he achieved as an adult in Community College….NADA, ZIP, ZILCH!

And, given the racial melting pot that is Harper, I’d venture they’re embarrassed the world knows he went there…and he’d get his ass kicked on a daily basis if he spewed his rhetoric there today!
Click to expand...

This is the problem with the US interpretation of free speech. It openly allows people to express their racists thoughts. With this & US citizens able to gain easy access to guns its not a good combination.
 
In my opinion, him being a debater he can debate all he wants on anything to do with his country. NRAs, neonazism, medicare, etcetera. That’s his liberty to debate what it does because he’s an American citizen and he can debate about American values or lack thereof.

My gripe has always been of how he staunchly promoted and announced that before 7th October, Israel has never killed Palestinians.

That’s propaganda. That year 2023 alone 192 Palestinians were killed by the IDF, and 8 more killed by settlers. 54 of those were children. Hundreds of life altering injuries not included. And thats not a 1 year record. Since 2003, the earliest records of Palestinians killed by Israel, the killing of Palestinians had been consistent annually of around 200 per year, with the exception of the 2nd Nakba year when killings were more. Before 2003, Palestinians had been killed by the IDF, of what they surmised as friendly fire.

I mean Charlie Kirk can debate all he wants about his country, but him being a staunch supporter of Israel and IDF debating as a public figure is just armchair critic and propagandist, regardless of which sides. He’s the American Douglas Murray. Leave that to the buffoons Jonathan Conricus and Eylon Levy they can argue all they want.

Still, no one should be killed / assassinated unless it is in self-defense to prevent the deaths of others (Adolf, Osama, etc). I highly doubt Charlie Kirk is such that.

No one deserves being assassinated, no matter the differences in opinion.
 
mattcity5 said:
I know in a lot of ways this is difficult to answer, because it'd be a sliding doors moment, but how would you feel if someone had murdered Hitler in 1932 or so? Or maybe that would be too soon as we wouldn't see the damage that he would cause, maybe 1940 would be better for that?

I do agree with your general point though.
Click to expand...

What if Hitler's dad hadn't beaten the crappie out of him daily, or he hadn't fought in inhumane conditions in WW2 like millions over Germans.
By 1921 the damage was done and the fate sealed in 1929. Germany was either going to be a full on Communist.or Nationalist dictatorship.
If only it could have been solved by blowing his brains out. There was still Goering and worse still Ernst Rohm.
He had nearly 3 million suited and booted thugs of which around 900,000 were either ex Freikorps, WW1 veterans, or both. They had access to sufficient weapons ammunition to arm around a million.
The military was better organised and had artillery and armoured vehicles but numbered around 100,000.
The reason Shitler was made chancellor is that Germany would desend into civil war between the Communists and the NAZIS, if Papen was reinstalled as Chancellor.
The military said they would be overwhelmed by around 6 million tooled up thugs with extreme views on the way Germany should be governed.
WW1 could have been prevented and maybe Christian Europe shouldn't have blamed people for the death of Jesus 1900 years before they were born.
 
East Level 2 said:
The phrase "he had it coming" is usually used when someone actively courts the danger they are dismissing.
In this case Kirk said a small number of deaths are acceptable and he just happened to be one of them. This will be demonstrated as his death won't lead to significant changes to the gun laws.
I accept it's a fine distinction I felt his comments worth mentioning.
Click to expand...

America is America because they armed themselves.
It's the bizarre need to own fringing mini gun that I can't get.my head round.
 
VOOMER said:
What if Hitler's dad hadn't beaten the crappie out of him daily, or he hadn't fought in inhumane conditions in WW2 like millions over Germans.
By 1921 the damage was done and the fate sealed in 1929. Germany was either going to be a full on Communist.or Nationalist dictatorship.
If only it could have been solved by blowing his brains out. There was still Goering and worse still Ernst Rohm.
He had nearly 3 million suited and booted thugs of which around 900,000 were either ex Freikorps, WW1 veterans, or both. They had access to sufficient weapons ammunition to arm around a million.
The military was better organised and had artillery and armoured vehicles but numbered around 100,000.
The reason Shitler was made chancellor is that Germany would desend into civil war between the Communists and the NAZIS, if Papen was reinstalled as Chancellor.
The military said they would be overwhelmed by around 6 million tooled up thugs with extreme views on the way Germany should be governed.
WW1 could have been prevented and maybe Christian Europe shouldn't have blamed people for the death of Jesus 1900 years before they were born.
Click to expand...

It was an over-simplistic comparison, I'm aware of that, but I feel it's still worth discussing.

As a token example, with all the impossibilities involved, take 2 scenarios.

1. Hitler is murdered in 1922, when nobody knows of him. He doesn't come to power and isn't responsible for the murder of millions.

2. Hitler is murdered in 1943, he has already killed millions.

Killer 1 would be demonised, killer 2 feted as a hero. It's always best to prevent problems rather than respond to them, but in a lot of ways the problem has to exist and be obvious for that extreme action to be accepted.

Now Charlie Kirk clearly wasn't Hitler. He was a man with a huge platform with the power to influence millions. At 32, he was way more involved in politics than Donald Trump and Ronaldo Reagan.

I'm not saying any of this is right, and I don't have any answers, just questions. Just concerned about what comes next I guess, but that's the way of the world these days.
 
ChicagoBlue said:
If you want omelettes, you gotta break eggs!

You want 2A, you gotta accept a few gun deaths!

At least, THAT is what he said when innocent children were slaughtered at school…so I guess he donated himself to the cause by dying by gun, at a school!

Btw, can anyone name a single child who was slaughtered at Sandy Hook? NO, I’m sure not, but the Right wants us to lionize the death of this Right Wing bigot?

FUCK THAT!
Click to expand...
Melissa Hortman’s kids agree with this post.
 
mexico1970 said:
I am all for mental health intervention, but not excuses.

Was Fred West mentally ill? Was Rose West? What about Brady or Hindley or the Yorkshire Ripper?You could argue that most violent murdering bastards have a mental condition no?

There's a line you don't cross and this is very much that line.
Click to expand...
It is a difficult question which is why English law has a clear test of insanity for the purpose of criminal trials: see Mcnaughten rules.
It can go wrong, often through public pressure to get a conviction.
The Yorkshire Ripper was declared sane and was found guilty of murder. It took about six weeks for the prison service to declare him nutty as a fruit cake and reassign him to Broadmoor. In reality he was schizophrenic and should never have been tried as a common criminal.
(He used to drink in my then local and I was on nodding terms with him. No sign in the pub of anything wrong. He came from a highly dysfunctional, criminal family.)
 
Last edited:
KS55 said:
It is a difficult question which is why English law has a clear test of insanity for the purpose of criminal trials: see Mcnaughten rules.
It can go wrong, often through public pressure to get a conviction.
The Yorkshire Ripper was declared sane and was found guilty of murder. It took about six weeks for the prison service to declare him nutty as a fruit cake and reassign him to Broadmoor. In reality he was schizophrenic and should never have been tried as a common criminal.
Click to expand...

I have no doubt at all mate and as you say mistakes can be made. In this case I hope he learns some Ukrainian where he's going.
 
At least Farage can see the bigger picture…
“The left tried to silence my friend, Charlie Kirk with wild slanders. Did they create an atmosphere where someone thought it legitimate to stop him talking for good?”

The champion of ‘free speech’ strikes again. Seems it’s not so much what you say, as who says it, as it always has been with free speech proponents.

At least it couldn’t happen here, in North Korea…
 
cucumberman said:
No one deserves being assassinated, no matter the differences in opinion.
Click to expand...
Yep. Morals and values that only apply to the people you like are not morals and values. The fact is that being fair, honest and decent should not be dependent on the politics of the victim. I'm pretty much convinced that far right and far left zealots are all mentally ill, it's the only explanation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top