The Labour Government

hilts said:
Your post just proves my point, you have a very narrow view. I think we can put racists/Tommy Robinsons crew in the no shit sherlock box.

So let's deal with the rest of your post

Immigration has always been about numbers and culture, the culture part is not new. Some people for example would like the whole country to be Atheist because they think religion is not only illogical but dangerous. There is a difference between preference and prejudice.

The little bit happier part has been covered, if someone wasnt happy at 200,000 then it went to 800,000 then back to 200,000 why would they be happy? they might be relieved its not quite as barmy, how do you know they aint? You been wandering around asking strangers?

We were not happy with the poles(erm not brown or muslim generally, whoops thought it was brown folk) but are with Ukrainians. So do we like white eastern Europeans or not? Thats one of the funnier ones I must admit.
Maybe just maybe people saw the Russians invading.the country and against your view these racists and facists maybe aint that at all, they will accept people in certain circumstances.

Denmark are strong on immigration, they aint a far right country thus dispelling the easy lazy argument - dont like mass immigration must be right wing or fascist or racist or xenophobic or all of them.

Not everyone belongs in the box you wish to put them in, you may not agree with people based on your view that forever growth is a good thing and that's fine but you are doing precisely what racists do. Pick a large group of people and demean them.

You even threw in 1939 but at least managed to avoid Hitler I suppose.
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We need immigration unfortunately and preferably skilled immigration however the same people making these arguments turned off the most important tap to skilled immigration 6 years ago. Forgive me if I don't trust a single argument on this.

I want to control the boats issue because that is just common sense given the cost. However, when it comes to other immigration we grew by 1.4% last year which is more than Germany. That growth comes from me and you but it also comes from immigrants so therefore do we want that growth or not? If not then fine, reduce immigration and with that you end the resources and workforce that can fix our problems.

The real question is who is to blame when immigration falls and everything remains shite? Brexit was supposed to solve this and things are not only still shite but they're even more shite. This isn't the fault of immigrants, it's the fault of idiotic political policy which has run everything into the ground. My local NHS trust has just sounded the alarm on its financial deficit so how do you think they'll fix it? They won't get funding, they'll cut spending/services.

Anybody could argue that more people are using the system so it's more pressed, yes. However, funding that system comes from productivity and productivity is low because so many people are sick, work is paying less and generally doing anything is a struggle. We need to stop blaming people for the rain because when are we going to fix the bloody roof?
 
metalblue said:

​

MP who voted against inheritance tax for farmers has Labour whip suspended​

Penrith and Solway MP Markus Campbell-Savours has had the Labour whip suspended after voting against the government last night.

The MP, first elected in 2024, was the sole government backbencher to vote against the motion to change inheritance tax rules for farmers, which was part of the budget measures approved last night.

Bit like those MPs who opposed the 2 child cap getting booted out a while back but now Starmer is so super proud of it being removed and how it’s the right thing to do. Is reelection the only thing he stands for?
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What ?
 
hilts said:
Your post just proves my point, you have a very narrow view. I think we can put racists/Tommy Robinsons crew in the no shit sherlock box.

So let's deal with the rest of your post

Immigration has always been about numbers and culture, the culture part is not new. Some people for example would like the whole country to be Atheist because they think religion is not only illogical but dangerous. There is a difference between preference and prejudice.

The little bit happier part has been covered, if someone wasnt happy at 200,000 then it went to 800,000 then back to 200,000 why would they be happy? they might be relieved its not quite as barmy, how do you know they aint? You been wandering around asking strangers?

We were not happy with the poles(erm not brown or muslim generally, whoops thought it was brown folk) but are with Ukrainians. So do we like white eastern Europeans or not? Thats one of the funnier ones I must admit.
Maybe just maybe people saw the Russians invading.the country and against your view these racists and facists maybe aint that at all, they will accept people in certain circumstances.

Denmark are strong on immigration, they aint a far right country thus dispelling the easy lazy argument - dont like mass immigration must be right wing or fascist or racist or xenophobic or all of them.

Not everyone belongs in the box you wish to put them in, you may not agree with people based on your view that forever growth is a good thing and that's fine but you are doing precisely what racists do. Pick a large group of people and demean them.

You even threw in 1939 but at least managed to avoid Hitler I suppose.
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So if it’s not skin color or religion where are the schemes for the Sudanese, Congo or Palestine ? There are none but there are for the white Christian Ukrainians
 
WRicko said:
So if it’s not skin color or religion where are the schemes for the Sudanese, Congo or Palestine ? There are none but there are for the white Christian Ukrainians
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You would need to ask the politicians that one and yourself a pretty obvious question.

The world is full of pretty desperate people who need help, that could be persecution war famine whatever. So we are back to numbers aren't we?

The post, which you have ignored most points made because its inconvenient to your narrow view which you follow like a sheep, wasnt about what the govt does its about your insistence on shouting racist, fascist and far right at people like a student who hasn't grown up and cant back up their stance with anything but simplistic insults.

Either address the points or bugger off back to your echo chamber.
 
We've got Guardiola said:
We need immigration unfortunately and preferably skilled immigration however the same people making these arguments turned off the most important tap to skilled immigration 6 years ago. Forgive me if I don't trust a single argument on this.

I want to control the boats issue because that is just common sense given the cost. However, when it comes to other immigration we grew by 1.4% last year which is more than Germany. That growth comes from me and you but it also comes from immigrants so therefore do we want that growth or not? If not then fine, reduce immigration and with that you end the resources and workforce that can fix our problems.

The real question is who is to blame when immigration falls and everything remains shite? Brexit was supposed to solve this and things are not only still shite but they're even more shite. This isn't the fault of immigrants, it's the fault of idiotic political policy which has run everything into the ground. My local NHS trust has just sounded the alarm on its financial deficit so how do you think they'll fix it? They won't get funding, they'll cut spending/services.

Anybody could argue that more people are using the system so it's more pressed, yes. However, funding that system comes from productivity and productivity is low because so many people are sick, work is paying less and generally doing anything is a struggle. We need to stop blaming people for the rain because when are we going to fix the bloody roof?
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And.i don't think fixing the roof is a good idea when there is a wild fire surrounding the house. Its basic stuff that large growth of the population cannot be 'caught up' with public services and more importantly the growth of people cannot go on forever.
No matter how many times its stated someone on here will at some point still come out with


We need immigration for growth and public services, its not only simplistic but its never followed up with the end game.

Its boring having to repeat it.
 
hilts said:
And.i don't think fixing the roof is a good idea when there is a wild fire surrounding the house. Its basic stuff that large growth of the population cannot be 'caught up' with public services and more importantly the growth of people cannot go on forever.
No matter how many times its stated someone on here will at some point still come out with


We need immigration for growth and public services, its not only simplistic but its never followed up with the end game.

Its boring having to repeat it.
Click to expand...
The growth of people has to go on forever and the reason why is we're not having enough children. It is forecasted that in 10 years time deaths will likely outweigh births and then the population won't grow at all without immigration.

If people don't have children then the average demographic over time weighs towards the elderly and less productive. Who is going to pay the tax needed to resource for everything and who is physically going to wipe the arses when there is nobody around to do it?

We could prioritise having more children but who is making that argument? Do you reckon Reform have improved maternity rights or better pay in mind? Of course not, look at their reaction to the removal of the two-child benefit cap. There is the old "don't have children that you can't afford" and well the fact is that people are taking that advice.

You only have to look at a country like Japan, aging population, restrictive immigration and an incoming population collapse. They have their own wildfire to contend with but it is caused by their restrictive immigration policies and cultural issues towards having less or no children at all. When most of your workforce are pensioners the below is the result.

This is why I believe that anybody who supports these Reform policies must just be stupid or more likely just ignorant because really they don't care about the population, they just want to get rid of certain kinds of people.

51323.gif
 
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hilts said:
You would need to ask the politicians that one and yourself a pretty obvious question.

The world is full of pretty desperate people who need help, that could be persecution war famine whatever. So we are back to numbers aren't we?

The post, which you have ignored most points made because its inconvenient to your narrow view which you follow like a sheep, wasnt about what the govt does its about your insistence on shouting racist, fascist and far right at people like a student who hasn't grown up and cant back up their stance with anything but simplistic insults.

Either address the points or bugger off back to your echo chamber.
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I am new to the conversation you where having so pipe down and stop chucking insults. Did I call anyone racist or anything else ? No. You don’t know anything about my politics. So you’re saying it’s the politicians fault for only having routes for the white Christian Europeans ? So does that mean your ok with us having routes for people from Sudan, Somalia, Congo, Palestine, the Uyghurs, Haiti, Myanmar ?

We not on numbers because I never picked a number, I never said we should help everyone I never even said it should be more or less. We could probably have helped for example only Ukrainians in eastern Ukraine and affectively swapped some Ukrainians for some people from for example Palestine. I have tried to pick places where you could say there is conflict perhaps more so for at least most people than in Ukraine. Yet for some reason we don’t have a system in place for these people to come here legally and claim asylum yet we do for Ukrainians. Why ? I would suggest that either the government thinks we are racist or Islamophobic or we actually are and the government is just following our wishes. I don’t seen any protests demanding safe routes for people from Africa or Muslims countries even from the liberal left. However I do see plenty of stop the boats, stop the asylum seekers raise the flags Tommy Robinson the islamaphobe Nigel the antisemit riots.
 
WRicko said:
I don’t see how cutting energy prices is a green solution especially when it’s done by cutting green levies
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Oh right I get you. I wasn’t intending to suggest lower prices reduces use, I was trying to say that less use means lowers prices (in a pure supply and demand context).

My rejection of green policies is this narrative that we can carry on as usual and someone else (say the business traveller) will pay for it and everything will be fine. Do you recall when we all stayed home and couldn’t fly / drive etc during COVID? Do you know how much difference that made? Practically zero. Extrapolating that out everyone on the planet can all drive EVs and never fly and we would not see any meaningful change to CO2 levels. I do believe carbon capture (coupled with reduced CO2 output) could offer solutions but doing it at scale is challenging to say the least.
 
We've got Guardiola said:
The growth of people has to go on forever and the reason why is we're not having enough children. It is forecasted that in 10 years time deaths will likely outweigh births and then the population won't grow at all without immigration.

If people don't have children then the average demographic over time weighs towards the elderly and less productive. Who is going to pay the tax needed to resource for everything and who is physically going to wipe the arses when there is nobody around to do it?

We could prioritise having more children but who is making that argument? Do you reckon Reform have improved maternity rights or better pay in mind? Of course not, look at their reaction to the removal of the two-child benefit cap. There is the old "don't have children that you can't afford" and well the fact is that people are taking that advice.

You only have to look at a country like Japan, aging population, restrictive immigration and an incoming population collapse. They have their own wildfire to contend with but it is caused by their restrictive immigration policies and cultural issues towards having less or no children at all. When most of your workforce are pensioners the below is the result.

This is why I believe that anybody who supports these Reform policies must just be stupid or more likely just ignorant because really they don't care about the population, they just want to get rid of certain kinds of people.

51323.gif
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Seriously I can't be bothered you're not even listening, how on a planet with limited resources and space can infinite growth go on forever.

Even if you asked a child they would grasp this very basic concept.

What happens when a species become overgrown to the detriment of everything else or even just becomes a fucking nuisance. It gets culled. Now we can't cull people not even scousers but sooner or later we are gonna have to stop growing as a species.

Even if none of this was true how do you expect a country to keep up with the infrastructure or needs for hundreds and thousands of people every year? Houses energy cars roads doctors schools medicine hospitals. People also consume shit and dump shit we dont have infinite places to dump it.You never catch up and to pay for it someone says we need more people, round and round we go but it can't go on for ever and then someone in the future will say how the fuck did we allow this happen?

But your just thinking of getting through today. What happens when AI hits properly you've now got millions without a job and you want more people?

We will have to deal with it at some point why wait until we have fucked up our surroundings? Because politicians have to get elected every few years and business does very well out of growth and consumerism and people like you have never thought or care about the consequences.
 
WRicko said:
I am new to the conversation you where having so pipe down and stop chucking insults. Did I call anyone racist or anything else ? No. You don’t know anything about my politics. So you’re saying it’s the politicians fault for only having routes for the white Christian Europeans ? So does that mean your ok with us having routes for people from Sudan, Somalia, Congo, Palestine, the Uyghurs, Haiti, Myanmar ?

We not on numbers because I never picked a number, I never said we should help everyone I never even said it should be more or less. We could probably have helped for example only Ukrainians in eastern Ukraine and affectively swapped some Ukrainians for some people from for example Palestine. I have tried to pick places where you could say there is conflict perhaps more so for at least most people than in Ukraine. Yet for some reason we don’t have a system in place for these people to come here legally and claim asylum yet we do for Ukrainians. Why ? I would suggest that either the government thinks we are racist or Islamophobic or we actually are and the government is just following our wishes. I don’t seen any protests demanding safe routes for people from Africa or Muslims countries even from the liberal left. However I do see plenty of stop the boats, stop the asylum seekers raise the flags Tommy Robinson the islamaphobe Nigel the antisemit riots.
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Am I or you responsible for choosing routes and deciding who enters the country? No
Are the politicians? Yes

Governments following the nations wishes is certainly a new slant.

I'm in the unusual position where I dont believe in adding to the population of the world or our country so in effect it puts me in a strange position. But lets put aside my population matters viewpoint and if i'm security at the welcome to the UK gate and could decide who comes in after one goes out then the polish sparky doesn't get in, the Russian businessman doesnt get in, the German banker doesn't get in, the 25 yr bloke on a dinghy doesn't get in, the child from Sudan does.

The only caveat i would make is you have a responsibility to keep people safe so it complicates things with religion and high crime countries. Be that criminals from eastern Europe or religious fanatics from anywhere.

Unfortunately that doesnt fit with the mass migration numpties view though.

My apologies BTW I just presumed you were the poster who I was originally applying with that was my mistake.
 
hampshireblue said:
Hospital porters, cleaners, care workers.... all fairly crucial. No company can function without these roles and therefore determining their "market value" is very subective. If your office isn't cleaned overnight you'll be the first to know and probably have a moan. If Axel the data analyst is off sick or on holiday, who notices or cares? Who's more important to the running of the business?
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It’s not subjective at all, supply and demand fixes a fair wage.

Big Erl gets paid hundreds of thousands a week cos he’s one of a select few who can score goals consistently at the highest level.
The office cleaner gets paid a low wage because literally any able bodied person could do that job.
 
hilts said:
Seriously I can't be bothered you're not even listening, how on a planet with limited resources and space can infinite growth go on forever.

Even if you asked a child they would grasp this very basic concept.

What happens when a species become overgrown to the detriment of everything else or even just becomes a fucking nuisance. It gets culled. Now we can't cull people not even scousers but sooner or later we are gonna have to stop growing as a species.

Even if none of this was true how do you expect a country to keep up with the infrastructure or needs for hundreds and thousands of people every year? Houses energy cars roads doctors schools medicine hospitals. People also consume shit and dump shit we dont have infinite places to dump it.You never catch up and to pay for it someone says we need more people, round and round we go but it can't go on for ever and then someone in the future will say how the fuck did we allow this happen?

But your just thinking of getting through today. What happens when AI hits properly you've now got millions without a job and you want more people?

We will have to deal with it at some point why wait until we have fucked up our surroundings? Because politicians have to get elected every few years and business does very well out of growth and consumerism and people like you have never thought or care about the consequences.
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If you care about the planet then do you want a pro-growth, pro-business, pro-house building, pro-fossil fuel, anti-green, pro-fracking and anti-regulatory party?

And what if we got rid of the immigrants for you? Tick..

This is the hypocrisy of the Reform voter (not necessarily you but many people who make these arguments).
 
We've got Guardiola said:
If you care about the planet then do you want a pro-growth, pro-business, pro-house building, pro-fossil fuel, anti-green, pro-fracking and anti-regulatory party?

And what if we got rid of the immigrants for you? Tick..

This is the hypocrisy of the Reform voter (not necessarily you but many people who make these arguments).
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Im not a reform voter so im not sure why you are replying to me with this, yet again you show your biased tunnel vision. I dont even believe you've met or talked to someone who cares about the planet who is a reform voter.

Anti immigration = dodgy reform voter type. You are as simplistic bigoted as them. That should worry you.

Frightening.

Anyhow you never reply to actual points in posts and just carry on with your made up narrative. I'll leave you to it. No need for a reply.
 
WRicko said:
So if it’s not skin color or religion where are the schemes for the Sudanese, Congo or Palestine ? There are none but there are for the white Christian Ukrainians
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Interesting.
So, I think your question can be changed to
"If the Ukrainians were black African/Asian Muslims would we have welcomed them into the country in such numbers"?
The answer is almost certainly "No".

We could also change the question to
"If the Ukrainians were black Christians would we have welcomed them into the country in such numbers"?
Again, probably "No"

Or "If the Ukrainians were white Muslims would we have welcomed them into the country in such numbers"?
Again, probably "No".

So the only way that the Ukrainians get into this country in such numbers is if they are seen to be exactly the same as us! Predominately white Christian in looks, attitudes, morals and culture. I do not think that is racism, it just seems to be human nature, people tend to form groups with like minded people. That seems to be exactly the same whether you are white, black, brown, Christian, Muslim, Jew.
 
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