The Calais problem (merged)

The world has always been a place where 95%+ (sometimes 99%+) of the wealth and resources has resided with half to one percent of the world's population and it has always survived because frankly people were blind to it . Now the Internet, travel, globalisation makes it visible, tangible and attainable.

It raises the question how long people will put up with it. On here people cry poverty but they have 100x more than people crying poverty elsewhere in the world.

It will be interesting to see if it is a sustainable world position or whether it will be torn down as everyone wants more.

Ironically the people who condemn the economic migrant are the capitalists who are going against their own principles of the movement of capital and labour to do so. It is the great contradiction of the right passionate support for capitalism until the second true economic freedoms threatens them. It is also the great undoing of socialism as the generosity to outsiders guarantees failure.

I think it's time if ee really believe capitalism is correct to free up the market and allow capital and labour to flow as the market dictates . If not we are all really just socialists living in a protected and legislated market and should just admit it.
 
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EalingBlue2 said:
Ironically the people who condemn the economic migrant are the capitalists who are going against their own principles of the movement of capital and labour to do so. It is the great contradiction of the right passionate support for capitalism until the second true economic freedoms threatens them. It is also the great undoing of socialism as the generosity to outsiders guarantees failure.

I think it's time if ee really believe capitalism is correct to free up the market and allow capital and labour to flow as the market dictates . If not we are all really just socialists living in a protected and legislated market and should just admit it.
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Most on here would shoot Socialists. An interesting concept then is would they shoot themselves?

The bigger question posed is,is the era of Post-capitalism about to occur. Capitalists will claim that the free market can solve all the problems of the world. But as you rightly point out it is contradictory to the extreme in denying the rights of the free market to all. It shows the inherent greed behind Neo-Liberal values and one of the flaws of Hayekian thinking is that resources are finite and the rush to close borders is proof that that is the case. As the rich guard the wealth and deny the poor the chance to partake in its benefits.
 
Rascal said:
BM does not like facts. It prefers, the shoot,nuke,drown sort of response to any issue. The clamour to be more extreme than the previous poster reminds me of a pack of ravenous Hyena's.
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Seems you're incapable of actually working out what facts are.
 
Rascal said:
Most on here would shoot Socialists. An interesting concept then is would they shoot themselves?

The bigger question posed is,is the era of Post-capitalism about to occur. Capitalists will claim that the free market can solve all the problems of the world. But as you rightly point out it is contradictory to the extreme in denying the rights of the free market to all. It shows the inherent greed behind Neo-Liberal values and one of the flaws of Hayekian thinking is that resources are finite and the rush to close borders is proof that that is the case. As the rich guard the wealth and deny the poor the chance to partake in its benefits.
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This concludes the party political broadcast for the Open Door Party.
 
SWP's back said:
This concludes the party political broadcast for the Open Door Party.
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I find this exchange so beautifully ironic, Rascal the socialist standing up for the true market and the free flow of labour and capital unrestricted by the bounds of socialist style market distortion. That is unless Rascal you are a true international socialist.

SWP's back ardent capitalist , defender of Dave and his goddess thatcher passionately criticising this and standing strongly for the market distorting policies that police and slow the free flow of labour and capital.

It just shows how no one really believes in their views as soon as they become disadvantageous.
 
Rascal said:
Most on here would shoot Socialists. An interesting concept then is would they shoot themselves?

The bigger question posed is,is the era of Post-capitalism about to occur. Capitalists will claim that the free market can solve all the problems of the world. But as you rightly point out it is contradictory to the extreme in denying the rights of the free market to all. It shows the inherent greed behind Neo-Liberal values and one of the flaws of Hayekian thinking is that resources are finite and the rush to close borders is proof that that is the case. As the rich guard the wealth and deny the poor the chance to partake in its benefits.
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It is amazing how most capitalists really don't believe at all in the market, they only believe in a market when they are protected and it works in their favour.
 
EalingBlue2 said:
I find this exchange so beautifully ironic, Rascal the socialist standing up for the true market and the free flow of labour and capital unrestricted by the bounds of socialist style market distortion. That is unless Rascal you are a true international socialist.

SWP's back ardent capitalist , defender of Dave and his goddess thatcher passionately criticising this and standing strongly for the market distorting policies that police and slow the free flow of labour and capital.

It just shows how no one really believes in their views as soon as they become disadvantageous.
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Socialism should always be Internationalist in its outlook in my opinion.
 
EalingBlue2 said:
I find this exchange so beautifully ironic, Rascal the socialist standing up for the true market and the free flow of labour and capital unrestricted by the bounds of socialist style market distortion. That is unless Rascal you are a true international socialist.

SWP's back ardent capitalist , defender of Dave and his goddess thatcher passionately criticising this and standing strongly for the market distorting policies that police and slow the free flow of labour and capital.

It just shows how no one really believes in their views as soon as they become disadvantageous.
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I'm shocked that a socialist wants an influx of ultra cheap labour into the market to be honest, driving down wages and increasing unemployment.
 
I would nuke all subscribers to the morning star - that would free up a bit of cash and room.
 
SWP's back said:
I'm shocked that a socialist wants an influx of ultra cheap labour into the market to be honest, driving down wages and increasing unemployment.
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As someone in the middle I find the anti immigration argument unfeeling and ultimately dangerous as it is isolationist. I find the let everyone in position ultimately dangerous as it is unrealistic.

I think we need controls but we need cooperative international solutions.
 
EalingBlue2 said:
As someone in the middle I find the anti immigration argument unfeeling and ultimately dangerous as it is isolationist. I find the let everyone in position ultimately dangerous as it is unrealistic.

I think we need controls but we need cooperative international solutions.
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I don't believe anyone could argue that point can they? But the UK is far from a country that practices isolationism it's a fairly open and welcoming part of the world,your point is a good one and something that is achievable if it's on an international table.
 
EalingBlue2 said:
As someone in the middle I find the anti immigration argument unfeeling and ultimately dangerous as it is isolationist. I find the let everyone in position ultimately dangerous as it is unrealistic.

I think we need controls but we need cooperative international solutions.
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So take some on in Oz.
 
yorknomore said:
I don't believe anyone could argue that point can they? But the UK is far from a country that practices isolationism it's a fairly open and welcoming part of the world,your point is a good one and something that is achievable if it's on an international table.
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Plenty do, the rise of UKIP and the furore constantly raised by the Express/Mail etc is a strong move for isolationism and against being an opening and welcoming country. Plenty of people in this thread are clearly neither. There is also a big unthinking group who believe genuinely you can make it all a problem for Jordan , Egypt and Turkey with no risk to that. There are also plenty of people on family income 50 or 100k £ PA who have no empathy or sympathy for someone with a family income of a $100 in rice .

The trouble is international action requires the wealthiest to give up a fraction of their wealth which non seem to be keen on.

Plenty on both sides argue for simplistic, unrealistic and naive policies with no thought to an overall long term solution with short term fixes and sound bites all that matters.
 
SWP's back said:
So take some on in Oz.
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I wish we would , we take even less per head than the UK and given our economy and wealth we should be taking many times more than the paltry 15k or so we do . But sadly we don't because our politicians would rather spend billions being hard on the most vulnerable than bringing them in, improving our population and tax base etc . In aus the nasty right and the unions seem to be aligned on these horrible policies as do labor and Liberals!

In the UK the push back is economically rational in aus it is economically irrational as Australia suffers from costs that are way too high and a small labour force as well as huge potential for population and economic growth.
 
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