Attacks in Paris

[Prestwich_Blue]

No, we can't, because it's clearly not as straightforward as that.

Just because many Muslims regard IS's interpretation of Islam as a perversion of their faith, doesn't mean IS's interpretation of the faith can be dismissed and ignored. It doesn't change the fact that their interpretation of the faith is being used to legitimise their very existence and the atrocities they commit against other Muslims and non Muslims alike. Most people aren't violent scum who want to inflict harm on one another, and thus, most Muslims will ignore the more violent passages of the Koran.

You can agree because you've just said the same as he has. That some choose to interpret the Koran in a way that they feel entitles them to kill anyone who doesn't fully accept their view.

I could go through the Old Testament and find violent passages that I could use to justify killing other people. God raining fire & brimstone on Sodom & Gomorrah for one. So if I wander through the Gay Village with a flame-thrower immolating gay and lesbian people, I'm really carrying out god's will. Would you place the blame for that on the Judaeo-Christian philosophy or me being a nutter? God commands the Israelites to wipe out the Amalekites down to the last man, woman and child. So let's nuke Gaza because that's what it says in the bible so must be fine. Etc.

The simple fact you can't seem to grasp is that 99.9% of Muslims don't go round murdering people in the name of religion. 0.1% do. The problem is with the 0.1%, not the other 99.9%.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

You can agree because you've just said the same as he has. That some choose to interpret the Koran in a way that they feel entitles them to kill anyone who doesn't fully accept their view.

I could go through the Old Testament and find violent passages that I could use to justify killing other people. God raining fire & brimstone on Sodom & Gomorrah for one. So if I wander through the Gay Village with a flame-thrower immolating gay and lesbian people, I'm really carrying out god's will. Would you place the blame for that on the Judaeo-Christian philosophy or me being a nutter? God commands the Israelites to wipe out the Amalekites down to the last man, woman and child. So let's nuke Gaza because that's what it says in the bible so must be fine. Etc.

The simple fact you can't seem to grasp is that 99.9% of Muslims don't go round murdering people in the name of religion. 0.1% do. The problem is with the 0.1%, not the other 99.9%.

The simple fact you can't seem to grasp is that the vast majority of Christians don't follow the Old Testament, and there isn't a problem with Christians taking exerts from the Old Testament to justify and commit terrorist attacks against Gays, as per your example.

Why do you find it so objectionable just to point out that this is currently a problem largely exclusive to Islam at present?

I repeat:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2015

And of course, this doesn't mean all Muslims are culpable, why does this need saying? Really?

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

The simple fact you can't seem to grasp is that the vast majority of Christians don't follow the Old Testament, and there isn't a problem with Christians taking exerts from the Old Testament to justify and commit terrorist attacks against Gays, as per your example.

So not just racist but homophobic as well.

 

[Barcon]

silvasdreamachine

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

So not just racist but homophobic as well.

What??

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

@Prestwich_Blue

Ha, wow. Okay.

Throw that grenade into the thread hoping for a bite and then just back out, nicely done mate. Pathetic stuff, from a mod as well no less.

I await you highlighting anything I've ever said on here that was racist or homophobic, won't hold my breath.

No response to the arguments presented, so just go for the character of the person presenting them. Lovely. Credited you with more intelligence then that. Seems I was mistaken.

 

[Summerbuzz]

@Prestwich_Blue

Ha, wow. Okay.

Throw that grenade into the thread hoping for a bite and then just back out, nicely done mate. Pathetic stuff, from a mod as well no less.

I await you highlighting anything I've ever said on here that was racist or homophobic, won't hold my breath.

No response to the arguments presented, so just go for the character of the person presenting them. Lovely. Credited you with more intelligence then that. Seems I was mistaken.

To be fair he might just be getting bored of you banging on. At least you're not bottling it up like Brevik.

 

[buzzer1]

To be fair he might just be getting bored of you banging on. At least you're not bottling it up like Brevik.

Rufus?

 

[mrbelfry]

This may be a dumb question but what legal process follows the shooting of a terror suspect. Is anything done to establish their guilt or otherwise?

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

@Prestwich_Blue

Ha, wow. Okay.

Throw that grenade into the thread hoping for a bite and then just back out, nicely done mate. Pathetic stuff, from a mod as well no less.

I await you highlighting anything I've ever said on here that was racist or homophobic, won't hold my breath.

No response to the arguments presented, so just go for the character of the person presenting them. Lovely. Credited you with more intelligence then that. Seems I was mistaken.

It was no more stupid than your utterly ridiculous comment that it's OK to kill gay people if that what the bible says.

...and there isn't a problem with Christians taking exerts from the Old Testament to justify and commit terrorist attacks against Gays, as per your example.

But you had to say that didn't you because if you didn't, it undermines your whole position that Islam is wholly to blame for the psychopaths of ISIS & Boko Haram. The truth is that if someone were to do that, citing the bible as their inspiration, we'd rightly regard them as deranged rather than blaming Christianity.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

It was no more stupid than your utterly ridiculous comment that it's OK to kill gay people if that what the bible says.
But you had to say that didn't you because if you didn't, it undermines your whole position that Islam is wholly to blame for the psychopaths of ISIS & Boko Haram. The truth is that if someone were to do that, citing the bible as their inspiration, we'd rightly regard them as deranged rather than blaming Christianity.

I've read his post slightly differently. I thought he meant "there isn't currently a problem of Christians going out and committing those attacks, using the OT as justification", rather than "I don't have a problem with Christians using OT as a justification for those attacks". Clarification would be good.

 

[PragueBlue]

I've read his post slightly differently. I thought he meant "there isn't currently a problem of Christians going out and committing those attacks, using the OT as justification", rather than "I don't have a problem with Christians using OT as a justification for those attacks". Clarification would be good.

Same here.

 

[dronefromsector7G]

I've read his post slightly differently. I thought he meant "there isn't currently a problem of Christians going out and committing those attacks, using the OT as justification", rather than "I don't have a problem with Christians using OT as a justification for those attacks". Clarification would be good.

It's not that ambiguous. PB has definitely misread the post, it's clear as day to me what he meant.

 

[coleridge]

My bad, youre cousin is a good woman.

The internet is not all that secretive. Its possible to track and trace practically anything. There just isnt the man (or woman) power to do this effectively at the moment but in any case are you seriously expecting us to believe that a sweet 16 year old kid perhaps dreaming of a life in footy or something can turn into a hate fuelled terrorist in what 1 year/18 months without any ANY of the aforementiod family freinds etc etc noticing.

Ill level with you coleridge. I think the mosque you go to probably is a fine old place of worship. However i think its bollocks to expect us non believers that mosques particularly those in more deprived areas arent breeding grounds of militantancy. Furthermore the manner which many of the questions ive asked or points ive raised have either been skirted round or ignored completely serves only to reinforce the view that perhaps islam is an insular and secretive society which perhaps seeks to protect its people over and above any actual laws of whichever land they reside.

I've not skirted round anything. If I knew who, how, where and/or when people become radicalised, I'd be straight on the phone to MI5. What is unhelpful is to suggest that there is some form of mass conspiracy in Muslim communities to hide and protect terrorists. There obviously is not. I may as well ask you what far right groups like the EDL are planning. How would you know?

 

[M18CTID]

It's not that ambiguous. PB has definitely misread the post, it's clear as day to me what he meant.

Yeah, that's how I read it too. When he said "there isn't a problem with Christians taking exerts from the Old Testament to justify and commit terrorist attacks against Gays, as per your example.", I read it as meaning that Christians - in this day an age at least - aren't carrying out such attacks, not that RDOG doesn't have an issue with Christians if they were to commit such heinous crimes. Was surprised at PB's response to be honest because it seemed pretty clear but if he's misread it then fair enough, it can happen a lot when discussing things on the 'net.

 

[dronefromsector7G]

Yeah, that's how I read it too. Was surprised at PB's response to be honest but if he's misread it then fair enough, it can happen a lot when discussing things on the 'net.

Are you starting mate?

;-)

 

[foetus]

Dark times are these

 

[coleridge]

Let's consider a few things about that statement.

• It may be true that Muslims (rather than Islam) are responsible for the majority of religiously motivated violence currently. However, much of that involves the deaths of fellow Muslims so you can't really class it as Islam v the rest.
• Had we been having this discussion 500 or 1,000 years ago, then we would have been talking about Christianity. The point has been made on here before that Islam is a relatively young religion that hasn't really come to terms with the world around it and the separation of church and state that Christianity experienced a few hundred years ago. It hasn't yet happened in the Middle East/Pakistan/Afghanistan & North Africa, although it's getting close in places like Malaysia & Indonesia and works reasonably well in Jordan, the UAE, Bahrain & Qatar.
• Even some Muslim groups aren't doing it because they're Muslim. It's because they have a political motive (Hamas, Hezbollah, Taliban, Al Qaeda) in a regions of the word where there is tremendous political instability and tend to be populated by Muslims. Relatively few groups (ISIS & Boko Haram principally) are doing it primarily for religious reasons.

I'd broadly agree and don't want to get into a historical debate. However, I'd say that Hamas and Hezbollah regard themselves as freedom fighters. The Taliban are an expression of the [most fundamental of] cultural expression of the Pushtun tribal nation [the largest in the world]. Al Qaeda was formed to drive the US out of the holy lands of Saudi after almost a century of undue. I know you won't agree but that's what they think.

I''d only say that fundamentalist Islam is a useful platform for the likes of ISIS and Boko Haram as, much like the IRA/UDA, it allows them to seized power, control and so money. I can only re-iterate that they are all criminals and mercenaries.

 

[bluemoonmatt]

I've not skirted round anything. If I knew who, how, where and/or when people become radicalised, I'd be straight on the phone to MI5. What is unhelpful is to suggest that there is some form of mass conspiracy in Muslim communities to hide and protect terrorists. There obviously is not. I may as well ask you what far right groups like the EDL are planning. How would you know?

It is re-assuring that you would act just as I would expect any right thinking person would if aware of a potential plot or cell, I however remain unconvinced that that enough muslims would follow you're lead. There isn't any suggestion from me that there is a muslim conspiracy, indeed I believe the vast majority of Muslims would probably follow you're lead but for me its inconceivable to believe that every muslim is doing their bit to report suspicious or radical behaviour be that in a mosque or community centre or wherever and herein lies a massive problem. For the record (given I abhor and therefore avoid extremist groups of any denomination) I can't imagine how I would hear of any EDL plot, but I too would report what I heard if I did become privy to information. That said I can't remember the last time the EDL burst into a mosque, a shisha joint or similar yelling Jesus saves and proceed to indiscriminately murder the occupants.

 

[coleridge]

@coleridge do you have any response to my comment?

You suggested previously that the reason Islam comes in for more scrutiny than other religions is because of bigotry against Muslims. Do you really believe that?

You don't think there's good reason to be fearful of Islam given all the violence carried out in its name every year by radicals the world over, quoting the faith's holy book?

You don't think any criticisms of the link between the violence and the religious doctrine has any merit?

This is a faith which is overwhelmingly overrepresented among religiously motivated violence the world over - let's not pretend otherwise. And of course, you're not responsible for that just by being virtue of a Muslim yourself. That should go without saying. It's an inescapable fact however, that your faith is regularly cited as justification for religious violence the world over, much more so than any other faith. Why do you think this is? What is the solution?

The rest of us are just looking in from the outside, trying to make sense of it all the best we can, we don't have all the answers of course. I'd be interested to hear your perspective.

I'm an atheist and I see flaws in all the faiths, but that doesn't mean I think they're all equally flawed, or that we have equal reason to be fearful/critical of each faith equally. I don't fear Mormon or Hindu terrorism for example.

As Sam Harris recently put it, uncomfortable truth or not: "Islam is the motherload of bad ideas". Particularly in the context of modern Western liberalism and secular democracy. There's a lot within the Koran that stands in direct opposition to the values we hold dear in our modern secular societies.

That's not to say that all Muslims stand in opposition to such democratic and liberal principles, they don't, only that those that are motivated to stand in opposition to them can find plenty of justification to do so in the Koran. Islam isn't a faith with a central figure like Catholicism for example, with a leading figurehead, many Imams seem to preach vastly differing interpretations of the faith. Such is the manner in which Islam can seemingly often be open to interpretation.

Could you please recognise that the criticisms of people like myself are not borne out of bigotry, and address these issues that we observe from the outside looking in?

Cheers blue.

I am not ignoring questions. I just don't have answers. Many [mostly Sunni] Muslims would say that it's beauty lies in the lack of authority [such as the Pope]. All religions are spiced with local culture. What one thinks of individual cultures is a matter of personal taste, I suppose.

However, I strongly urge you to not be taken in by those with agendas. For example [leaving out the 'Z' word], you might not be in fear of Hindu violence but many Muslims in India are. There are regular, state-supported massacres. The Hindus are always second [after the Zs] on the terrorist bandwagon. That's why there are still over 900k Indian soldiers occupying Kashmir and trying to bring in more Hindus to 'ethnic cleanse' the area, much as the Chinese have done in TIbet. Of course, Buddhism is a trendy religion and the Dalai Lama really cool. Personally, I think that he is a lying, despicable parasite. Anyway, you'll get Hollywood stars meditating for Tibet. Not one of them ever even mentions occupied Kashmir or [heaven forbid] the continued genocide of the Palestinian nation.

You need to think more in the round, my friend. Personally, I wish the whole world has a Western, liberal, democratic culture that allowed free expression of religion and atheism. Sadly, that's just a dream. I'll defend Western values tot he death. However, I will not meekly sit by and accept the lies, hypocrisy and greed of the powerful and their acolytes, be they Christian, Jewish, Atheist [say, China] or Muslim.