EU referendum

[dickie davies]

I put Obama's fourcentsworth in the same camp as De Gaulle's four centimes when he visited Quebec. Keep yer fuckin' nose out and get yer own house sorted!

I can't for the life of me see the connection - perhaps he can - that UK staying in with the deadbeats will reduce the number of innocent lives blown away by American nutters armed to the teeth with automatic weapons. Or is there another reason for his sally into UK politics?

Having spent eight years in the White House, tho (see what I did there?) I'm not a student of American politics, I am well and truly buggered to see what he has achieved. I wonder if it turns out to be a Yes vote he'll claim UK's continued membership of the EU as his legacy!

On last night's Question Time, it was suggested the reason the US wants us to remain in the EU is because we are America's voice

 

[Chippy_boy]

@steviemc, I respect your well-argued position and your post is fairly unusual on here in that it doesn't appear you are dogmatically taking a position in defiance of all logic.

For my part, I am very mixed about the whole question. On the one hand, I tend to agree with pretty much everything you've said. But on the other hand, I think the negative impact on the UK economy in the short term will be pretty bad and at my age - with effectively 10 working years left - I am really worried about 10 years of no growth, perhaps recession, rising unemployment, perhaps rising interest rates. I think most of these things are frankly inevitable if we leave.

Your position that these difficulties are not sufficient incentive for you to want us to remain is completely understandable and your choice. Ultimately it may also be my choice. However, at least you recognise there will be difficulties. I feel sorry for those who think everything will be plain sailing if we leave however, because I am certain it won't be.

 

[Malty]

'If it means I get my lightbulbs back, I want OUT': Liz Hurley weighs in on Brexit debate as she shares saucy selfie

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...exit-debate-as-she-shares-a-saucy-selfie.html


I'm sold !!

 

[Helmet Cole]

Out for me.

I have no desire for us to be part of a so called 'union' when it's abundantly clear that the advantages no longer serve their original intentions. The EU has become a sinkhole of red-tape with the larger nations constantly embroiled in power struggles. Of course Germany and France don't want to us to leave - why would they?

Whilst we remain they have far more chance to manipulate issues for their own self interests. So do we, but the problem is that they're better at it than us, due to our ongoing reluctance to put our foot down for fear of upsetting the other leading economic nations.

When our own PM lobbies for Britain to be able to opt out of having a 'closer-union' with the EU, yet purports to be in favour or remaining in it, it hardly fills you with confidence. When the US president makes a sound-bite that Britain should remain in the EU, yet this would be the last thing in the world he would advocate for his own country, it hardly fills you with confidence.

Cameron went cap in hand to the EU asking if we could have a proposal that newly arriving immigrant workers would not be entitled to non-contributory in-work benefits for a minimum of four years. Something which makes sense for our economy. Did he get it? No. It was blocked by strong opposition from four central European countries, one of them being...surprise surprise, Poland! No shit Sherlock. He was also shafted with his proposal to stop migrant workers sending child benefit money back to their home countries. No surprise there either.

The issue of migrant workers and immigration is only a small part of EU commitment, and many of those that are in favour of remaining in the EU often use this as a counter-argument, by suggesting that the people who want out do not really understand the full implications of EU membership and focus too much on migration and similar issues. It's the typical 'ah, but you don't really understand the full picture' response.

I disagree, and suggest the migrant worker example above indicates precisely why the EU does not function effectively. 28 member states each having their own agenda, and each having a major impact on other member states (irrespective of their individual economic position) is one of the most stifling things I can imagine.

The fear of trading becoming more difficult if we were to opt out isn't enough for me to want to remain. There are already excessive regulations imposed within the EU which restrict competitiveness and increase administration, therefore the idea that it's much easier trading whilst a member of the EU I find quite hard to swallow.

Spot on, very well put. Apparently the claim that the EU costs us 361m a week is wrong. That is our gross contribution. After all the rebates an smoke and mirror stuff we only actually lose 61m per week. I'm assuming the remain campaign expect us to think that is a good thing?

 

[Malty]

Spot on, very well put. Apparently the claim that the EU costs us 361m a week is wrong. That is our gross contribution. After all the rebates an smoke and mirror stuff we only actually lose 61m per week. I'm assuming the remain campaign expect us to think that is a good thing?

Great posts.

No BS. Simple truths that even the thickos could understand that want us to remain on a sinking ship which is the EU. Well said.

 

[sir baconface]

An example of why some of us suspect we don't get the full story..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...ng-rape-Kent-shocking-conspiracy-silence.html

Yeah, yeah it's the fascist Daily Fail so it didn't happen, blah, blah, blah.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Come on now...yes, it can be called a union, but their system operates nothing, nothing (i repeat NOTHING) like an EU membership. That's a silly point-scoring reply.

No it became far far more than that, in many ways becoming what the outers so fear. There were US outers in many of the states, Texas, Louisiana, much of the south and west, back in the day. look how the Union was formed, for economic and external necessity, with inners and outers and different languages. They went the whole hog though common government , common language, full freedom of movement between the states. They even had original founding members and new joiners and very high immigration . Some big differences but Not as different as you think

 

[EalingBlue2]

An example of why some of us suspect we don't get the full story..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...ng-rape-Kent-shocking-conspiracy-silence.html

Yeah, yeah it's the fascist Daily Fail so it didn't happen, blah, blah, blah.

We had a very similar situation with the BBC and ITV and Radio stations and our politicians did we not. Sadly the UK has been riddled with such conspiracies to protect sex criminals and they have protected rich and poor , black and white etc

 

[cibaman]

@steviemc, I respect your well-argued position and your post is fairly unusual on here in that it doesn't appear you are dogmatically taking a position in defiance of all logic.

For my part, I am very mixed about the whole question. On the one hand, I tend to agree with pretty much everything you've said. But on the other hand, I think the negative impact on the UK economy in the short term will be pretty bad and at my age - with effectively 10 working years left - I am really worried about 10 years of no growth, perhaps recession, rising unemployment, perhaps rising interest rates. I think most of these things are frankly inevitable if we leave.

Your position that these difficulties are not sufficient incentive for you to want us to remain is completely understandable and your choice. Ultimately it may also be my choice. However, at least you recognise there will be difficultie. I feel sorry for those who think everything will be plain sailing if we leave however, because I am certain it won't be.

In reality I think you only have to worry about the next two years. During that time its possible that the Leavers will have concluded a free trade agreement with no strings attached and proved that leaving the EU was undoubtedly the correct decision. They can all say "I told you so" and I for one will be very happy to be proved wrong.

But if they don't deliver a free trade agreement with no strings attached, we will not leave the EU. There will be a 2nd referendum which will almost certainly reverse the original decision to leave.

So, only two years to worry about. Two years of complete chaos perhaps, but only two years.

 

[EalingBlue2]

It's interesting how RAGcafe's in/out poll is in favour of staying in and opposite to Bluemoons (72% in favour of staying in the EU FFS not even close).. is that because most of their fans are foreign daytrippers perhaps and like the cushy relations the EU has with each other!?

Not that I'm saying all our hardcore fans are British, but just an observation.

I would suggest that this cellar and these threads are very white male dominated and increasingly middle aged and that sadly due to the way this board has gone theirs is a lot more inclusive . The only requirement there is you are a ****

 

[Helmet Cole]

I would suggest that this cellar and these threads are very white male dominated and increasingly middle aged and that sadly due to the way this board has gone theirs is a lot more inclusive . The only requirement there is you are a ****

Shit, I'm on the wrong forum.

*packs bags and leaves to join other cunts*

 

[Chippy_boy]

No it became far far more than that, in many ways becoming what the outers so fear. There were US outers in many of the states, Texas, Louisiana, much of the south and west, back in the day. look how the Union was formed, for economic and external necessity, with inners and outers and different languages. They went the whole hog though common government , common language, full freedom of movement between the states. They even had original founding members and new joiners and very high immigration . Some big differences but Not as different as you think

That's a good point Ealing. Years back (perhaps 20) I argued that the EU could never work because unlike in the US where you have a properly functioning central government (<cough<), they also have a common currency, complete free movement of labour enabled by no borders and a common language. I argued that these thing were a necessary requirement if an EU aiming for full political union was to be viable. A single currency brings huge problems because it necessitates a single interest rate which may be wholly inappropriate for certain "geographies", with differing rates of growth, unemployment, wages etc. But it can be made to work if you have a central government willing to divert funding to different areas as required and free movement of labour to enable people to skill up and move.

It seems perhaps 20 years on that we are closer to that than I ever thought we would be. Of course it's not where many people (probably most people) in the UK want to go. But it's not impossible that that could work now.

 

[The perfect fumble]

In reality I think you only have to worry about the next two years. During that time its possible that the Leavers will have concluded a free trade agreement with no strings attached and proved that leaving the EU was undoubtedly the correct decision. They can all say "I told you so" and I for one will be very happy to be proved wrong.

But if they don't deliver a free trade agreement with no strings attached, we will not leave the EU. There will be a 2nd referendum which will almost certainly reverse the original decision to leave.

So, only two years to worry about. Two years of complete chaos perhaps, but only two years.

I cannot think of a single trade deal of note concluded in that time frame, it takes two years minimum to draw up the issues to be discussed.

As for "agreement with no strings attached" that only happens in war when one side has unconditionally surrendered.

If you want a flavour of how barking the Vote Leave campaign is look no further than this lunatic...

EU referendum: Vote Leave's Dominic Cummings questioned by MPs - Politics live...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...nship-with-us-at-risk-uk-warned-politics-live

Summary

• Dominic Cummings, the campaign director of Vote Leave, has been described as having “no grip on reality at all” after startling Tory and Labour members of the Commons Treasury committee with a series of provocative claims. After questioning him Helen Goodman, a Labour member of the committee, posted a message on Twitter saying: “Genuinely alarmed at the behaviour of Dominic Cummings who runs Vote Leave, He seems to have no grip on reality at all.” Andrew Tyrie, the Conservative chair of the committee, accused him near the start of the hearing of playing “fast and loose” with the facts. During the hearing Cummings accused the Bank of England and the Treasury of “scaremongering”, described Treasury civil servants as “charlatans” and accused the Cabinet Office of threatening people who did not support it on the EU. Tyrie said these were “truly extraordinary claims” and challenged him to provide evidence to back them up.

 

[CityStu]

No it became far far more than that, in many ways becoming what the outers so fear. There were US outers in many of the states, Texas, Louisiana, much of the south and west, back in the day. look how the Union was formed, for economic and external necessity, with inners and outers and different languages. They went the whole hog though common government , common language, full freedom of movement between the states. They even had original founding members and new joiners and very high immigration . Some big differences but Not as different as you think

So you'd be happy with the UK becoming an equivalent of California, speaking German and using the Euro? We should have just let Hitler get on with and saved tens of millions of lives...

 

[Helmet Cole]

So you'd be happy with the UK becoming an equivalent of California, speaking German and using the Euro? We should have just let Hitler get on with and saved tens of millions of lives...

Could have even saved Hitler the bother if we'd bent over for the kaiser and the rest of his family 24 years earlier. I blame the so called German monarchs we had at the time for not playing ball.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Oh George has thought of it, but that is not his main objective, nor is deficit reduction come to think of it, that's just a means to an end. The end being the permanent reduction of the State.

A chancellor who shrinks the state will end up shrinking his popularity...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...lor-shrinks-state-end-up-shrinking-popularity

"Let’s face it. All this stuff about “one nation” and “compassionate Conservatism” is so much guff. When people say how pragmatic and centrist this chancellor really is, I, for one, start counting the spoons. As Tony Travers, professor in the British government department at the London School of Economics, writes in the coming August issue of the National Institute Economic Review, Osborne’s desire for “a 36% state” (as a proportion of GDP) “is well below the longer-term average for UK state spending, and will require very large further cuts to ‘unprotected’ services such as local government, the police, fire, transport and housing.”

This is his agenda, he makes no secret of the fact.

I missed the post above earlier.

If that is George's agenda, then that's fantastic! He's got up in my estimations. It's always a point of incredulity to me that watching the government being completely incapable of effectively running ANYTHING, some people would advocate giving them more things to run. Why on earth, would anyone want that? Piss up and breweries doesn't even cover it. The government is basically completely shit at everything it does, be it passport offices or failed car manufacturers or aero engines or hospitals or telephones or army procurement contracts, or well, everything really.

Name me one thing that the government runs that you think, gosh what a good job they are doing there. They are institutionally, completely inept. The less involvement the government has in our daily lives, the better.

 

[sir baconface]

I believe many of us old-git outers voted the other way in the original referendum but became disenchanted with irritating regulations and loss of sovereignty, most notably over immigration. If Cameron had been able to achieve meaningful changes in his negotiations, the current debate would look very different. Maybe it was an impossible task because what we want is too fundamental.

Instead, we are being offered a glittered turd.

When push comes to shove, though, fear of the bogey man will almost certainly win the day. We'll stay in and - because Cameron has already shot his load - won't have a strong hand. If the EU does have a re-think on immigration it will probably arise from a backlash in Southern Europe.

 

[The perfect fumble]

I missed the post above earlier.

If that is George's agenda, then that's fantastic! He's got up in my estimations. It's always a point of incredulity to me that watching the government being completely incapable of effectively running ANYTHING, some people would advocate giving them more things to run. Why on earth, would anyone want that? Piss up and breweries doesn't even cover it.

You're right, what a pity McDonald's were denied the opportunity to supervise your education, at least you'd now be able to flip a burger.

 

[sir baconface]

Shit, I'm on the wrong forum.

*packs bags and leaves to join other cunts*

I never liked closed shops. I salute Bluemoon's philosophy in having no pre-entry barrier but, instead, offering us all a fast-track development programme.

 

[Chippy_boy]

You're right, what a pity McDonald's were denied the opportunity to supervise your education, at least you'd now be able to flip a burger.

Yes the United States has it all wrong, spending more on education than anywhere else in the world and producing more top scientists from 8 out of the world's top 10 universities. What a fuck up their system is. Bring me asbestos-riddled 1960's prefabs any time.